Rangers Banter Archive August 07 2012

07 Aug 2012 22:01:26
4-0 great game, sheils scored 1 and set up 2 will be great player this season!

Third and second division stuff. Let's not get carried away. 38,000 on the sunniest nicest evening this year, more people need to start showing up also.

07 Aug 2012 21:54:47
While folk keep moaning about us paying 5k a week,ect for players to play d 3, remember we have the cups to play in also, How good would it be if we win all the cups while in D3,lol

I agree in sentiment OP but isn't that speculating to accumulate and I don't recall that working out well before.

We have to sign half descent players if we draw premier league teams in the cup we don't want to take a hammering and going by the signings we made I think there is not too much in the spl that would find it easy at ibrox

@2) oh come on! Really getting carried away, Celtic beat us by 20 points when we had all our big players who have left. And Celtic are getting stronger.

07 Aug 2012 21:41:46
Heard Barry Ferguson has declared his intention to resign for a 3rd spell at Rangers as he feels he can prolong his career playing at lower level while helping the club get promoted.
He has several business ventures in Scotland and is seriously considering getting his coaching badges in Largs.
I spoke to his brother and thats what he said believe it or not I for 1 would take him in a heartbeat especially at that level

Im sure the young players will be glad to hear the bully is returning to top up his pension.

How is he a bully a would take ferguson back in a second he always played for the shirt just what rangers need right now

SM

Wee Barry has declared for Bomber Brown not for newco and Charles Green.

Ferguson is still a disgrace to Scotland I'm afraid.

07 Aug 2012 21:14:06
bedoya does not want to play in 3RD Division. He is not good enough!

GB

07 Aug 2012 20:24:35
1-0 Big Jig

TTG

07 Aug 2012 20:12:56
I am A life long Arsenal fan, but have always liked rangers, stay strong you will soon be back where you belong. You were treated badly. Good luck for the season a head, and you will soon be back in SPL. Gunner Terry

Cheers Terry and good luck to the gunners this season.

Arsenal is my English team , big fan of Wenger, hope you have a great season

My first ever game was against arsenal in a friendly think it was 1973

JG

Dont believe them terry , they are all chelsea supporters , shamrock.. ps come on the spurs

Thanks for the shares mate, best £250k we've never had.....cheers Whyte

07 Aug 2012 20:02:53
Celtic fan here.Really pleased for your club and for football, to see big turnout tonight.Best thing to follow your club and you're doing that despite all that's happened.We 'd do the same as you know.Honest ---good luck to all my Gers pals on the fight back up.Great night for you all.

Good post m8 cheers

07 Aug 2012 19:56:22
45,000 people for the first round against East Fife

well done to every single one of them

07 Aug 2012 19:00:17
dont know if anybody agrees,but with the players ally has brought in,rather than have large wage bills,surely with the current squad mixed with the youngsters we can gain promotion.remember its sfl 3.dont mean to be disrespectful to the sfl 3 boys.and also if we keep bringing in more players on five grand contracts,how can we fund this in sfl 3.

07 Aug 2012 18:11:56
what radio station is game on ed ? {Ed039's Note - BBC Sport website and Radio Scotland)

Not on Radio Scotland

07 Aug 2012 17:43:44
I Don't know about anyone else but im very pleased with the signings we have made , shows ambition and have got our self a few good players , we should possibly look at some older players so the young ones could benefit off the experience markky!x

Atleast we're getting players we want, unlike under White.

07 Aug 2012 17:35:16
Hi Fellow Bears...been a wee while since my last post. Off in sunnier climes.

Okay - Charlie appears to be "doing his bit"! We're signing quality - over quantity - players for the level of football we are going to be playing. I understand the concerns being mooted by one or two here but in my opinion, Green looks upon players as business assets. Therefore to apply that mentality to what he is doing, I'd say that with the fact we cannot make NEW signings in effect until the January window in 2014, he is simply amortising the financial outlay for these players across at least a 18 - 24 month period of time. That will help keep the books in line.

So personally I am relaxed with who we are signing and what we are paying as the reality is everyone signed now needs to do us for realistically 2 years.

Therefore Charlie appears to be backing McCoist....

Charlie has also kept his word and slashed the prices of season tickets relative to the division we are playing in...

So Bears we need to start showing a little more faith and trust in Green and the new Board and begin committing to season ticket renewals.

To maintain the level of paranoia and distrust which I fear still exists within a great number of fans is - in my opinion again - going to pose a greater danger to our future well being than anything Charlie does!

Time to start showing a little trust in each other Bears....and... remember the eyes of the country are watching. So if we really do want to stick it up to everyone, lets not leave ourselves open to ridicule by anyone! Unite and stand together!

SPM

Well said mate.
It is our responsibility now,let's get behind what Ally and the others are doing,after all it's for our club. Heres to a bright future!
C'mon the Teddy Bears.
P.O.B.

The problem is no or very little sell on value there.Meaning bigger money needed to be spent in three years?

Pob , how are you getting behind anybody. you are telling people where they can watch the game for nothing tonight. should you not be telling them to go to ibrox , now that WOULD BE getting behind the team.. shamrock

This is a sensible post. Also remember that whilst we may have to plan for 3 years of lower league football, firstly we MUST do it in 3 years or it's a disaster and secondly we can probably expect reconstruction sooner with an accelerated path for us back to the top league. I think the type of players we are attracting on no transfer fee is better than I could have wished for months ago. Let's face it, quite a few SPL teams would be delighted to pick up Black, Shiels or Sandaza. Keep Believing as old Marv used to say !

@3. sham*ock not everybody can make the game you know things like work...mark.

I know that mark, i miss celtic games because of work. but pob is never off our page. professing to be the best rangers supporter ever. we have a sneeking feeling he doesn't even know where ibrox is. shamrock

Green not botherd bout sell on value soon as we back in spl he will be off

07 Aug 2012 16:48:55
ed do u no if rangers tv cost anything
SM {Ed039's Note - There are various different elements that you can purchase that cost different amounts. Go to official website and click on RTV tab and you can see the costs)

SM - live games cost 6 quid or you can buy a monthly or season package, your IP address needs to be outside the UK if you want to see live games though

JG

JG

07 Aug 2012 15:09:00
Rumour going about that Murray will take SPL to court if EBT's go against Rangers - that will put Scottish Football back into FIFA's firing line {Ed039's Note - Murray has nothing to do with Scottish football anymore, it would be a personal case, not a footballing case)

Oh they must be trebling at the SFA. Hell hath no fury like an enraged Sir Minty Moonbeams.

07 Aug 2012 14:59:04
Beattie deal dead....mc coist told him at 9.30 this morning that he was desperate to sign him and that he would push it through with green in the afternoon......Green got back to Mel Stein(agent) at 12.30 to say we have no further interest in your player 2k would have got him there...Beattie has been treated abysmally....sgould have just told the guy earlier that he wasnt wanted...he burst his a*** to get there.

Problem is Green is dealing with a proper up front agent with knowledge - he has read the script - Green = Bengal lancer BEWARE

I agree with you but we were desperate before we got Shiels,Sandaza and Kyle,Then interest cooled

This is an example of how not to do recruitment. An agreed rate should be acknowledged upfront before the player agrees to a trial.
No one should ever go to a job interview not knowing the package in advance.

07 Aug 2012 14:21:54
So thats us signed hearts best player,kilmarnocks best player,and now saints best player.I think it tells us everything we need to know about these clubs that their top players would rather play for the mighty gers in division three than for them in the spl.They are well and truly Diddy teams.watp.

It's the money talking mate!They'd rather have the money than play in highest division.Yes,tells you something right enough.Money still rules!Perhaps the 3 clubs you mentioned are staying within their means----unlike their new club.Diddy teams---how dare you.

I have nothing against killie , are they not the only team who didnt vote us out spl, good luck to them... jsm

Everton's,stoke,sion ect took our top players does that mean in their eye's we're a diddly team?

Blueice

You have signed three out of contract players.Shiels;Seems he had other offers? No clubs named. Black;no rush of clubs for him that was reported anywhere.Sandazza:same as black with the added poor comments about rangers in Jan.Lets not go over the top here.

Excusing how UTTERLY disrespectful (and inaccurate) that entire comment is, it not only highlights why most teams actively hate you, it shows why your are in the financial mess you find yourself.

What the signing of Black, Kyle, Shiels and Sandaza shows is that their respective clubs were not about to live outwith their means to keep them, but The Rangers - always at the forefront of good financial management - were more than happy. It also shows that these guys are in it SOLELY for the money - and if you don't believe that, ignorance is bliss I guess.

The Patient

What you talking about they are all unemployed SPL rejects. Rangers weren't exactly front of a Q to get them.

So its not cause nobody else wants them.
as they know. a small wage is better than no wage. and they know their limits. D3

Money talks , double wages and they will play anywhere. celtic fan here btw. can i ask a serious question tho, are you not worried with the wages your shelling out for average players( you wouldnt touch them on those terms if you were in spl). best hope that season ticket sales go well or it could be short lived . not gloating tbh as think league will be mince for a while and missing OF games already............bhoywonder

If you think Black was Hearts' best player then you're the diddy. {Ed039's Note - Who was better? Was he not voted Hearts player of the year last term?)

Diddy teams absolutely. Bankrupts absolutely not. Killie won their last game at Ibrox and also beat the original Rangers on their last visit to Rugby Park.
Won league cup beating Celtic in the final. Not bad for a diddy team.

@10 you missed the point Celtic are a diddy team as well lol

07 Aug 2012 13:49:45
hello is the rangers game on tv tonight if so could someone tell me what side

I'ts not on. Now go and pay at the gate.

No it's not being televised, if you want to see it go to the game!

Not on tv, but try online if you can't make it over.

My god i only ask a simple question if it was on i used to go to at least 25 plus games a season before my car crash 2 years ago bet you 2 aren't even at the game tonight you turds

07 Aug 2012 12:55:44
3 players singned today kyle sandazza and cribari can sum1 tell me if they can play tonight {Ed039's Note - Wont be registered in time, Sandaza and Cribari I can see have signed, but nothing on Kyle yet)

Sandaza can play tonight - Rangers Website

07 Aug 2012 11:48:33
At last! Sir David Murray has defended the club and his own reputation against a never ending witch-hunt by the relentless 'Celtic Family'. Geo

"Murray must never be forgiven for what he did" Today: "I believe every word Murray tells me". :-)

NO witch hunt, we think murray should get a sainthood fir all he's done for celtic

There's no witch hunt by anyone let alone the Celtic family. You're just a hatred spreader. Cretin.
Murray sees an opportunity for sound bites and trying to recover some credibility with Rangers fans, that's all. Anyone who runs along with this character is a fool after what he's done.

Listened to Doddsy last night on the radio and he claimed he just signed whatever his financial advisor put in front of him.

Which could be true albeit unlikely that anybody would be that trusting over 190k and remember wee Billy also denied a few months back that he'd ever received an ebt.

Anyways, i would imagine his financial advisor wouldn't be too happy at what Billy said as he would have a duty to explain the papers that Billy was signing.

I guess they're all just gonny end up blaming each other and so after feeling a bit optimistic about the big tax case yesterday I now think it will totally & finally discredit Murray and his porno pal Baxendale Walker.

Haven't heard anything about Murray suing Mark Daly & BBC Scotland which if he had ever had any intention of doing he'd have done by yesterday.

Hamish

Aye mate, just a pity Sir David was duped by Craigy Whyte or his legacy would be fully intact.

Seriously, ask yourself this, why won't even one of his media cronies who were even happy enough to claim Rangers would likely obtain a CVA etc etc say they think Rangers' appeal in the Big Tax Case will go in Murray's favour?

He is the main cause of Rangers' predicament at the moment and never forget that.

BARNEY BEAR

Craig Whyte was the guilty one at Ibrox for not paying any taxes,etc...Do you honestly believe Murray would have sold to him if he'd known that?

@3 lol don't make me laugh of course there's a witch hunt but you don't like to admit it you try and kid yourself on that rangers don't concern you and that nobody at Celtic cares what is going on at rangers and that it was not Celtic fans who started we will boycott games if rangers are voted back to the spl and then started the campaign to have rangers striped of titles aye but no bother mate we will all believe you when you say there's no witch hunt em not

No matter what was done in the past. Murray is 100% correct when he calls it a kangaroo court. Where else in the world have the sentence and punishment been agreed before the party is found guilty and without the people who were involved even given an appropriate chance to defend themselves against evidence which has not even been produced by the accusers yet. Not to mention the make it up as we go brigade of the SPL. It was bad enough the world laughing at their last antics, these clowns continue to make Scottish football the worlds circus for idiot-ism.

Ozzie Al

@3, you may not be personally driven by hate my friend but are you seriously suggesting that non of your support are? There has been and continues to be a witch hunt, you not being involved in it does not mean it doesn't exist.

Protecting his knighthood

Mr Murray who never invested a SINGLE pound of his own money. Lloyds Bank and Rangers itself funded the glory years and bank interest - not Murray!

Getting sick of people saying its a witch hunt etc. Once and for all are Rangers rangers or are they a new company. Lets face the facts old rangers became insolvent and unable to continue, blame david murray or craig whyte(it has to be one or both), When rangers became unable to trade they gave up theyre league spot to a team that could. The new rangers applied for permission to join sfl, same process for any new team. So far i see no outside influence, no timmy pulling the strings etc.So whats unfair about that, i would think annan and spartans think its unfair that they were not able to get that sfl place something they have been working towards for years. So back to newco/rangers which is it, are they old rangers with all the punishments coming their way or are they newco with no case to answer. Be carefull here as to apply for an sfl license requires three years accounts. Do sevco/Rangers have three years accounts. Have the rules been bent to suit celtic, i dont think so, have the rules been bent to suit rangers/sevco? Was Campbell Olgilvie a director of rangers or celtic, what is his current position, do u think he has influenced any decision making.Why was there even a vote on where sevco/rangers could play, why would a brand new team that has never played a game get straight into spl.
Next point, all this crap about spl will crash, clubs cant afford not to play rangers- Seriously cant imagine scotland becoming a basketball nation, will kids now refuse to play football because rangers are in the 3rd division. If a club goes to the wall a better run club will take its place. Are professional footballers in this country going to stop playing because rangers are in 3rd.NO NO NO. Get it into your heads u are in the 3rd division because of financial mismanagement by either david murray or craig whyte(maybe both). Try not to sound like a five year old thats just lost his sweets when replying to this. To the good rangers fans all i say is chin up and i look forward to your return to spl.
P.S Rangers will rule the roost again it may take ten years but it will happen
Johnnybhoy

07 Aug 2012 11:30:59
See our mr murray cant keep his mouth closed. Havent you did enough Mr murray in helping us be the laughing stock of the country and contributed in bring our team to the state its in. Why dont you shut up and crawl back into your hole and let us get on with trying to rebuild this sorry mess. p.s he came across as if he did nothing wrong- ebts, selling to that clown whyte.need i say more

I thought his stonewalling was more the problem to be honest.

07 Aug 2012 10:36:21
my team 4 2nite

alexander

broadfoot boca goian wallace

shiels black hutton mckay

little mcculoch

Shiels should play further up,my mate's a Killie fan and says he's best as a striker

07 Aug 2012 09:34:12
rangers have sold 30,000 tickets so far for east fife match. you can pay at the gate so get along and support the boys!

07 Aug 2012 07:11:06
im quite prepared to except stripping of titles which is 5 titles in period their talking about 2001 until 2011.let them catch up. if found guilty,what i find hard too swallow is transfer ban as we are a newco shouldnt be imposed on us already been overturned.amounts too blackmail from spl well u do this or your not getting a licence .i repeat we are a newco now weve got to rebuild in a few weeks pathetic

If indeed rangers are a newco,why did they not have to start in amateur leagues like Gretna?Thats the reason for the sanctions. {Ed039's Note - Nothing like Gretna, nobody bought Gretna assets and started them straight away. Rangers is still Rangers, Gretna is a completely different situation. Nobody could put up the money for them to be able to compete)

The transfer ban is from SFA not SPL.
It is because Rangers is a new club that were getting the ban.
We need three years football experience and accounts to get into SFL. They are breaking their regulations to let us in. The transfer ban is the price of entry. {Ed039's Note - You dont need 3 years accounts, a newco can apply just like anybody else, why are you people not getting this, if you have 3 years accounts then you MUST produce them, if you are a newco and dont have them then you CANT produce them. This was also a transfer of membership so its not the same thing)

Ed - about no 2). you are wasting your breath trying to explain this to these people

they have their own agenda and their own version of everything that has went on & no-one from our side is apparently allowed to speak out or defend the rangers

any comments regarding this topic or se*co should not be posted imo.

bil72

ED you are in part right but the situation is totally different from Gretnas. They went first into administration at the end of season 07/08 and ALL staff were made redundunt.
The club were initially relegated to the Third Division and due to their inability to guarantee fulfilment of their forthcoming fixtures after this demotion, the one remaining offer to buy the club was withdrawn. The club resigned their place in the Scottish Football League on 3 June 2008 and were formally liquidated on 8 August 2008 and the club was forced to dissolve in Aug 2008. Gretna were not a team in liquidation at the start of the process so did not have to re-apply to join Scottish Football league to allow them to play in 3rd division they were in administration at that point.
Further to your statement on accounts etc , The Rangers have been allowed to somehow use the liquidated Rangers teams accounts to fullfill the obligation needed to enter Scottish Football, even thougth these old accounts were not upto date either?
Further to your beliefe that The Rangers are still the same club then you must also look at the situation of a team that was in a more similiar sitution to Rangers that being Ardrie
The Rangers Football Club PLC is a public limited company registered in Scotland (company number: SC004276) and was incorporated on 27 May, 1899. When the current company is officially liquidated, all of its corporate business history will come to an end.
When this happened to Airdrieonians in 2002, all of the trophies, titles and records associated with the club were discontinued and a new club, Airdrie United FC, took over. Airdrieonians' official history ended in 2002, then Airdrie United's took over.

The answer lies principally in the eye of the beholder. Some supporters will view the new Rangers as the same Rangers, while others will feel the old Rangers no longer exist.

When will liquidation end?
How long liquidation takes will depend on the individual company, e.g. the nature of its assets and the complexity of the liquidation. Once the process has been completed the company will be dissolved and cease to exist.
The SFA appear then to have allowed NEWCO into Scottish Football bypassing the normal process? the essence is all in the company being Liquidated and not in administration? {Ed039's Note - Thanks Mr Regan for the insight)

Ed a transfer of membership signifies it is not the original club. If it was the same football club (for instance having been relegated, it would have the same SFA membership). Transferring membership is evidence of a new club.
Secondly people were on tv explaining that Rangers needed 3 years accounts to get into SFL. The idea was that they would use the oldco accounts, but it was pointed out they hadn't done any for 2010-2011 and 2011-2012. This is not the 3 years UEFA accounts issue, which u seem to get confused with. In fact one commentator said SFL regs required 4 years accounts.

@2 RFC do not need 3 years accounts to get into sfl when transferring membership.
The 3 years accounts come into play in applying to play in Europe. Definitely need them then.

Honestly ed. Stop these morons from posting. If they cant understand the rules regarding accounts etc. just don't post their stupid comments. No point trying to educate them either as they are thick as s***e and can't see past their green tinted specs.

Rangers1

07 Aug 2012 01:54:02
there are 4 clubs playing on plastic surface in div 3 this season.newco have got them in 4 away games in a row from september till november,better get the medical team on standby.

06 Aug 2012 23:56:42
What kind of message is it sending to young Rangers players that the club feel compelled to be signing Black etc. Every player signed till the window closes essentially says to these youngsters "we don't think you're good enough for Division 3 and probably in a year's time (even after that further development and experience) not good enough for Division 2. With a "state of the art" training centre too! This club will never, ever be fiscally responsible. I thought with the current squad that a few £2k a week players would comfortably see them through but nope, they will quite probably have the second highest wage bill in Scotland this year with a pittance coming in bar gate money.

Absolutely agree. Rangers should be employing a safety first strategy at the moment in time and I wouldn't really be too surprised if we were to go back into administration at some point this season.

And the fact that we haven't bothered putting a team into the new Scottish Under 20s league is just plain stupid. How can that decision possibly be justified?
BARNEY BEAR

I do take issue with the 'pittance' coming in through via gate money!

BARNEY BEAR

Green is taking no chances on the footballing side, failure to get promoted from SFL3 in first season would be catastrophic. We would be laughing stock (again) and crowds would disintegrate.
It will be difficult to avoid administration but that's another story.

It's not a case that they are not good enough. We dont have any experience in the team. I am by no means a professional footballer but every time i changed level I needed a wee bit of time to get used to it. These 17-19 yr olds need time. They will feature in our team all season. We lost 23 players we need some quality.

It is a very strange road to go down.After all these years of running an academy there is no trust in the younger players.What have they been coaching?Rangers best youngsters,augmented by 3-4 experienced pros should get promotion from the third.If Black,Shiels etc are on 7k p/w,plus Alexander,Goian,Boca and Broadfoot this is a huge wage bill for the third div.

Yea and your point is? we will have around 35,000 season ticket holders, 4 x more than any club in scotland outwith ceptic of course. rangers should be able to afford 7k per week no bother for our top players.

J

All footballing issues, recruitment strategy and footballing tactics on the park rest with Ally McCoist. These are his ideas not Green's.
Ally's managerial record is poor.
If he doesn't win sfl3 this season he will be sacked. His resources are huge. He's buying the league, same approach as SPL.

A couple of years ago every rangers fan would say our reserves would walk div3 if they needed to play there.
It's part time bin men ffs.

Ins't it more to do with Green trying to maximise season ticket sales? Where that money will go, I have no idea.

Barney this is the OP, I said bar gate money. J my point is, which you struggled to see evidently, this was the perfect season for Rangers to put out a inexpensive team, blood some youngsters and for the first time in a long while find league success while running at a profit. This squad would be a good Premier team and therefore way too rich for its current requirements but why change the habits of a lifetime eh?

06 Aug 2012 21:43:31
Chris Iwelumo anyone? he has been told he can leave...could do a job if beattie is gonna be greedy

I rather we used davie weir upfront than that idiot lol

06 Aug 2012 21:33:10
we really cant get any lower can we calling into question the integrity of a major law firm . for years we said celtic were the paranoid lot . the facts are if we are guilty then no matter who investigates us we are going to get hammered . another worry i have is all these new players , on average of a few thousand a week is just crazy we wont get back near spl if we dont start to learn from our mistakes ,

Your point about the law firm is missing the point. What Green/ the board are saying, is that the firm MAY not be impartial, not that they will not be impartial. Even a suggestion of bias is enough grounds to challenge an appointment of an 'independent' arbiter. Muzz

06 Aug 2012 23:10:21
Ian black - 7k a week
Dean shields - 7k a week
Fran sandaza - will command a similar, if not more lucrative salary......... how can we afford this???

Now i know the likes of bocanegra, edu, goian n bedoya are likely to leave and this will get approx 40k off the wage bill n with davis, lafferty, naismith, mcgregor, whittaker n others that takes in total approx 200k off but for talkings sake neil alexanders wage alone probably trumps most 3rd division clubs overall wage budget. Why are we not snapping up some wee gems from the lower league who'll do a turn but not command thousands a week? Sandaza was a target 6 months ago,have our scouts chucked it or suhin?
J1985

It's called tried and tested we know these players are spl quality and we need to be back there ASAP the bottom line is if you don't buy big you ain't assured to get where you need to be when you need to be there. As rangers fans many of us were happy to start in dv3 but we all knew we would need to make it back to the spl as soon as possible

All our scouts are invisible they just sit in scotland and dont go anywer else

You have to bear in mind that we cant sign anybody for 3 windows, this team needs to be good enough to take us all the way to the 1st division. then some more investment to get to SPL.

@1. Tried and tested??? Why do we feel the need to spend the best part of 20k a week on 3 players for div 3 and div 2??? Yes, if we make it to the 1st then we can look to spend to get us ready for a return to the SPL but a team with the likes of Alexander, Wallace, Broadfoot, Hutton, Little and McCulloch, mixed with youngsters like McKay, Cole, Naismith, McLeod and with Hemmings to come back and a few signings from the lower leagues who do not command a hefty salary should stroll SFL3 and SFL2. My point is we had an opportunity to cut back big time and 2 seasons blood youth and effectivly save money for a potential SPL return, by signing these lads we are only doing the club more harm than good IMO. Wouldn't be surprised if we ended up back where we were in Feb!!!
J1985

@1. you will see all the youngsters get a chance to shine but playing them week in week out will just burn them out and good quality pro's around them cant do any harm...mark.

@4and5 time 8.37 rangers two east fife 0 shields gets second if your a true rangers man I bet your happy we signed him now. We need these players to hit the ground running as we will still be expected to beat everybody we meet in cup compos even spl teams that's why. Just say we get drawn against Celtic in the cup and we had not built a strong team and we got pumped 6,7,8 nil you would be on here going mental saying we were shyte and ally should be sacked look just be happy we can still attract these players