25 Jun 2025 09:32:22
Interesting debate that's started on a few threads and then been lost.
In terms of playing style and philosophy, both Clement and Martin are pretty much identical - a style that we're currently not equipped to play.
Do you Guys think we'll adapt to find a system that suits the players we have (like Clement tried to do) or do you think Martin implements his style regardless?
Example being both liked a keeper who played as an auxiliary defender, holding a high line around the 18 yard box which allows the defensive line to push up to the halfway line.
This is something that neither Butland or Kelly are comfortable with - which then resulted in our defensive line sitting 10-20 yards deeper.
25 Jun 2025 09:57:28
If he is to implement his style would we not require a keeper and cf, as u have previously stated neither can play to Martins system. If we go down the route of trying to adapt a style to who we have, then we're probably going to continue in the same vein as last year and struggle at times, think it depends on who we bring in/ offload, something u will have a better idea about.
25 Jun 2025 10:01:35
Martin will play the game the way he sees it EHL, like he has at every club he's been at, his keeper will be out the box very regularly and i just never seen this from a Clement keeper, won't be long until we see the way he's playing, so you think he changes the way he sees the game and plays the game at Rangers EHL? fair enough mate won't be long before we find out.
25 Jun 2025 10:02:42
For what's it's worth EHL i think we have to find a style the players are comfortable with first. Then adapt when we have the personal in place that are capable of doing the job he is asking. Square pegs round holes at the moment.
25 Jun 2025 10:08:43
Who is his keeper Star? As EHL has alluded to could Butland/ Kelly play the role you suggest bud? ?.
25 Jun 2025 10:14:26
I think he has to do it his way but he won't be able to get all the players he needs to do it well in one window, may be adapted depending on opponent. Butland and Kelly should get away with it against most of our league.
25 Jun 2025 10:14:37
I agree Fork and how quickly we can develop as a squad will be dictated by the speed at which we can 'exit' players.
I just worry that as a fanbase we've set the expectations of the revolution a little too high since the takeover was announced.
MyStar, I think he'll do what he said in his interview when he arrived - which is review the squad, set us up to win games and implement his style over time when the squad is ready.
25 Jun 2025 10:24:40
Fair enough EHL.
Fork just my personal opinion mate, if only Butland and Kelly it has to be Kelly, we all know Butland is the better keeper but I just panic everytime I see the ball near his feet, I can't be the only one.
25 Jun 2025 10:30:13
My take on it and I could be wrong is there are major differences in Clement's style and Martin's style. Clement isn't a possession dominant manager where as Martin is.
Clement's focus was on verticality and getting the ball forward as quickly as possible. Martin is more patient in his approach looking to pull teams apart to create space. Always felt Clement's system was amazing at exploiting space (hence European success) but terrible at creating space. Where as I think Martin's teams are better at creating space (hence his best performances in the championship coming against the low block) .
Another difference for me is that Martin likes width in his teams which I don't think Clement prioritised towards the end of his tenure. Cerny and Bajrami on the wings cutting in and Tav coming more central with only Jefte really playing on the touchline.
Clement's side was prone to going long and looking to pick up the second ball a lot as well which I don't see in Martin's sides (MK Dons, Swansea and Southampton) .
I don't think Clement is a bad manager but I don't think he was the right one. I don't know that Martin in the right coach but I am more than willing to see what happens and put my full support behind him.
I'll try find some statistical data to back up my points and add it in this thread.
25 Jun 2025 10:35:29
You're not wrong bud?.
25 Jun 2025 10:38:21
Can't remember who said it a couple of weeks ago maybe Augus, anyway maybe Butland being involved far more could benefit him and his concentration, my heart just beats faster when he got the ball near his feet though lol.
25 Jun 2025 10:47:46
I'll add some stats I've found
So i haven't been able to find Clement specific stats but I will use what I found.
So in the two seasons Clement was part of those 2 seasons were our worst for possession in the last 5 years, as we're passing accuracy and goals conceded.
Errors leading to goals were 6 one season and 1 the other.
In his first season at Monaco the club averaged 63% possession which is roughly what we have had over the last 5 years per season (although the 2 seasons Clement was involved in at Rangers had lower averages than this around 62.1) but the following season at monaco his side averaged 50%.
I'm sure Joshua Barrie done a piece on Clement's tactics showing we were going long and direct more than ever and that it was missing out Raskin and Dio in our build up and they were being asked to go win the second balls which is why we often struggled for control in matches.
25 Jun 2025 10:49:59
I'd like to see the Butland from the first season, if he's staying.
25 Jun 2025 10:54:05
Ayrshire, I was really surprised to find out that both managers are virtually identical.
Both start 4-3-3 and pivot to 3-4-3 during the game.
Both want to press and dominate the ball.
Both expect the same from GKs, Fullbacks, Centre Halves, Wide Players and Striker.
The only difference to note is in the midfield - Clement was very rigid in wanting one 6 and two 8's. Martin like to alternate between one 6 and two 8's and two 6's and one 8.
Most of what you mentioned about PCs set up is accurate, but that's how he felt he had to set up with the squad he had and not how he ultimately wanted the team to play.
25 Jun 2025 10:57:36
I think like Clement had to do Martin will be required to play a style that better suits the players he has in the short-term. I thought that was the point of having a coach and so that we wouldn't have to change a whole squad every time we change a manager.
However having said that I think Clement was trying to implement the style we actually want to play but was forced to play differently as we didn't get the players we needed to play the new Rangers way; i. e. the framework which NK and PC were initiating. I think Martin is now the 2nd iteration of that management style and the players or at least style of players we wanted will now gradually be sourced to fit that style. once we are there the next coach will be asked to play that way with the squad we have.
My worry is the fans have no patience for that transition to happen and will happily be willing to keep sacking managers until we can find one who can make that silk purse from the sows ear we have. and that will continue to lead to failure. good news is board won't listen.
25 Jun 2025 11:01:10
EHL totally agree, our fans will be disappointed either way. if RM plays (and i think he will) to his style then we have issues with players who aren't comfortable and mistakes will happen. If however he plays to the players strengths then the fans will say nothing has changed and we are still doing what we did last year.
as you said until we offload the players who won't be comfortable playing to RMs style/ tactics then we will inevitable have unhappy fans.
25 Jun 2025 11:19:52
His style probably depends on moving people on key positions, we know Dessers is likely to leave and a striker more suited to his style brought in, not sure if Butland would be open to a move to let a more comfortable keeper with the ball at his feet arrive.
I don't really know much about Conor coady other than what's been said on here, good player but lacks pace. I would've thought he'd have liked a cb that can get back quickly if indeed we are going to play a high line but that then takes us back to a keeper who plays as a sweeper like you said.
25 Jun 2025 11:30:25
Ayrshire, again you are correct - however the reason Clement went direct more frequently wasn't necessarily because he wanted to.
With our GK and Defence sitting 10-20 yards deeper and with a Striker who's strengths aren't in his hold up / link up play we adapted to play to our strengths - which was more direct.
Hence why I said the other day that it's telling that we are looking to sell our top scorer and how this move is pivotal in moving us forward (no criticism on Dessers) .
25 Jun 2025 11:34:54
I'd have said PC played with 2 cms and a 10 not 6s n 8s n whatever else. He played with 2 cms and a 10 and that's how we got beat when we did. Tan over the top of in mf. I'd swear to that being the case.
25 Jun 2025 11:58:47
I think Russel Martin will try and commit to trying to implement his style as soon as possible. Every club he's been at and every level he's been at he has tried to impose the same style and philosophy (which obviously didn't work at Southampton in the Prem but is an example of him committing to his style regardless) .
I feel Clement have up on his desired play style far too soon, as mentioned his decision to rely upon longballs up the park and scrambling for second balls was really unsuited to the players. Clements big weakness tactically, for me, was implementing a style he 'thought' would work for the players he had but ultimately was probably less suited to them than his preferred philosophy.
Of course the players are most important to blame for Clements failures, as they will be for RM if we don't at least make some good ground this window (which I think we will)
In Summary - Yes RM will commit to his Philosophy regardless of the playing staff, maybe a tweak or two but he was brought in to play a style and he will play it.
25 Jun 2025 12:00:14
Agree Mark, Butland is the better keeper for me. Don't see how or why he can't improve with the ball at his feet tbh. Other keepers have developed into very useful defenders in the modern game.
25 Jun 2025 12:00:58
Well since the whole message that has come out of the club and new appointments has been about our "DNA" going forward and that RM was the outstanding candidate to match that then I guess he implements his style regardless of players and we recruit to suit that.
Even though I loathed PC towards the end of his reign, I do think he was given a raw deal by us and if he was stepping in now he would do better.
25 Jun 2025 12:03:55
Correct Stevie, again though that's not how Clement wanted to line up, just how we had to line up given the players available.
Whenever Barron, Dio and Raskin were all fit they typically played.
Looking back I actually remember him trying out both Lawrence and Hagi in the 6 - which really didn't work out at all.
25 Jun 2025 12:43:40
I really do hope by end of window we get the right players in for the manager to play the way he wants. Until then I want to see progress / a structure with all players bought in and if they don't they don't play
I can't bear another season of repeating the same mistakes and hoping for a different outcome. If we do RM won't last.
They will strengthen and we need to make sure we can complete.
Keeper and Defence is central to how we progress until that is rebuilt we'll struggle to significantly change our style of play.
Sorry sounds very -ve wasn't my intention. I do believe we are on the right trajectory.
Onwards and upwards.
25 Jun 2025 13:46:09
Thanks for that insight EHL. I always felt Clement was a good manager he was just too stubborn and shoehorned players into positions but this was partly down to the board and their previous wasteful decisions putting us in a financially difficult situation.
Hopefully we focus on the spine of the team after sorting out the defence. Aarons and Beck would be great options at full backs. Then get some CB's in, a press resistant 6 and a striker who can link play and press well. Then move onto getting in the wingers with speed and technical ability to take a man on.
25 Jun 2025 13:59:26
Hopefully, the back line and goalie will be comfortable from the off, even when Pep came to city the amount of stupid goals given away for the first few months were comical and that's from a higher standard of player, we lost the first goal far too often in the last couple of seasons and had us up against it which led to dropped points, think it could be heart in mouth stuff at points for us this season.
25 Jun 2025 14:22:32
From my understanding, which I know is probably way short of yours EHL, I just don't see them as similar at all. PC was all about getting the ball forward quickly and dominating transitional play. RM is all about dominating the ball and moving opposition around to create opportunities.
Think there was a question mark against PC style and wether that would work with us. Actually think RM is more suited to our club because we should be dominating most games with the ball.
We never got that at all with PC and it was really bad because if you have his tactics and your not winning consistently it's terrible to watch. It may have worked with better players under PC but it's something we will never know.
25 Jun 2025 14:31:39
It's not the shape. It's what players do inside the shape. Shape doesn't decide player actions, the coaching principles do and I hope RM gets his across quickly. Far too much emphasis on shape and formations these days and some seem stuck on blaming a formation for lack of a press or chance creation etc. It rips my knitting.
A formation doesn't create identity. Rinse and repeat Behaviours do. Formation is a merely framework that helps organise a team. Forget the 433 442 4231 formations are much more fluid than written.
I hope RM promotes good habits on and off the ball. that's key. The players have to believe in what he's doing and go all in and by the sounds of it he's a very good communicator.
25 Jun 2025 14:48:27
Fair play Ehl. I do remember PC saying it was imperative we signed a replacement for lundstrum.
We never did.