Rangers Rumours Archive April 09 2012

09 Apr 2012 22:05:09
Just as a bit of perspective while we wait for the week to reveal the pb, SDM has a personal wealth of £110m, his company MIH has debts of £600m. I am not a mathematician but in the real world would that not make him one of the poorest men in Scotland. Or is this just another example of what is wrong with the country at the moment. God only knows what CWs balance sheet looks like. Captain Bob maxwell looks like the Archbishop of Canterbury in contrast to these cowboys. When (or if) Rangers come back we all must say NEVER again

No it doesn't make him poor , his personal wealth and the companies wealth are two separate things , a company is a seperate legal personality in law therefore both separate entities.

I think that is what the poster meant mate. The fact that murray personally, is worth over £100million, yet the companies he owns are £600million in the red, but, at the end of the day, if the companies go bust - he is left with his £100million

It means he's drawn massive wages while his companies have lost millions but he knows they can't touch his personal fortune when MIH go burst ! Just like he's done to rangers !

I believe the highest offer under a CVA will be 25 million or so, assuming CW has 30 million secured, I work out HMRC and the other creditors get zero. If there is no security then I can not see both HMRC and Ticketus agreeing to approx 15p in the pound. At least one would pursue other legal options against the trading company.

These are not the figures that someone made up earlier

Debts are one thing, assets are another. MHI has assets and value and is made up of a number of companies. Also, this debt is also due mainly to the credit crunch, prior to this, they were successful companies. This also relates to the timing of the bank putting pressure on Rangers.

He's worse than that:
His £100m IS money that he has extracted for himself when the going was good.
But the £600m debts?
A large part of that is owed to Lloyds who are 46% Tax payer owned. So as well as stiffing honest taxpayers at Rangers through EBTs, he's run us up debts of £250m+.
And its gets better. he's currently defending hos own EBT tax avoidance from MIH, and we don't know what the assessed liability is yet, but it could put rangers £75m in the shade.
And becase this EBT debt would sit in MIH... it would become Lloyd's problem... which is 46% taxpayer owned.

This guy has could cheated tax, and left the taxpayer to pick up their own penalties.

Piece of work, this soon not to be Sir David Murray!

And I am sure his assets easily exceed his 600m debts. I used to believe wealthy people had more money than they owed, that decent people paid their debts and that good business men looked ahead and put money aside for a recession. Not really having a go at SDM but more of a point about the spivs running football and business. Also why our club should try something different, large fan based ownership, youth investment, style of football, charity affiliations, take the best bits of ajax, barca and other clubs, rather than more barra boys paying 30k a week to overrated europeans

By the way, the -£600m is net book value.
They are effectively valueless, but will continue to trade as long as the cash flow can be maintained, sucking value from the shareholders like a boat that leaks!

His personal wealth was much larger few years back

MIH accounts say they took £4m in player sales profit in the final 10 months of tenure of RFC before CW.

Made £4m the year before as well.

Makes you really scratch your head how we can run up so much debt in the past year to reach £55m. Did we actually pay anyone (appreciate Ticketus is half debt, but even excluding that, with player sales and income, it beggers belief).

09 Apr 2012 19:20:39
Beating celtic was only papering over the cracks, too many bears thinking that it makes a difference and we will be challenging next year. Firstly we cant buy to strenghten, secondly they can, they also get revenue from europe, we don't so even if we could strengthen where is the money coming from, no one will give us credit now!

Aw away ye go. rangers will survive and come back stronger. when whytes out the door it,ll be happy days again nothing to worry about with celtic thats the worst team ever to win a league. christ we pumped them twice and a mean played them af the park. cheer up graeme

AND we probably won't be in the SPL FFS!

bill72

Which celtic are you talking about ? the one that was a disaster earlier in the season or the present one.........that bottles it at the must win games ?

Worst team ever yet we managed to overturn a 15 point lead and went 20 games unbeaten, yeh shocking team isn't it ya numpty

Correct, Rangers and their fans have always had the mind-set that being better than Celtic was enough, during their 9 in a row the did little in Europe, but the biggest crime of all is the last four seasons, when rangers should have been selling the big names to clear the 18 million debt to Lloyds, not signing guys like Jelavic, Lafferty, Whittaker etc. but they couldn’t bear to see Celtic win the league, they would rather put their selves in to extinction trying to stop Celtic winning the league, well it just papered over the cracks and its falling down about you now, imagine Rangers had used the 35 million Walter smith spent in the last four years to pay their bills

Come back stronger when whyte leaves? and how will this be possible? if rangers survive till the end of the season, players on redudced wages are gettin them increased again. debt will still be there but bigger, no europe money to buy players, no money from shirt sales or season ticket money and no gate receipts cause its close season.
then, new season starts, no money, no new players and no europe. things are gonna get a lot worse before they get better.
frankiebhoy

I don't understand some of the Rangers fans sometimes. We beat Celtic easily with a deflated and part make shift team, and we're papering over the cracks.

Celtic have just won the league. They are meant to be the best in Scotland just now.

We won't need heavy investment in the team to challenge Celtic next year if we remain in the SPL. I really don't think they're that good.

Get a grip man... WATP.

Play money spinning games in america and asia, only a thought.

We WILL be back FrankieBhoy and you know it............

Dont forget about the exodus leaving in the summer.

Bottles it at must win games

15pts behind in October to 1 point ahead late December. 20 odd games unbeaten

I'd have a re think at who the bottlers are ha ha

Papering over the cracks is about right you struggled to beat a nine man Celtic and you think that everything is ok ! Roll on next season but of course you are the people or so you thought !

And your point caller! Feckin zoomer!
Think we all know the situation. All true bears want is for our club to survive first and foremost and then we can look to the future, you do get some absolute bam pot ceptic supporters!! WATP

A Celtic under 23 team has just won the league and you think your going to get stronger with no money and a mass exit in the close season, you people are totally deluded for goodness sake man Ally has basically told you 3 times you are getting liquidated and the Blue knights are kidding you on but hey ho this is just the real world.

We will survive and it will be up to us the supporters and season ticket holders to make sure we not only survive but rule as normal. If 40,000 put £500 into a membership fund it will give us an initial £20 million,if the right owners are found we will also have our season ticket monies.The membership fee must be topped up every season to ensure we have funds for players,this in turn will generate income as titles and cups and european competition returns,the top up fee must be more modest than the original membership.Fans should also think of any means possible to raise monies however modest,and this will also go towards the fund for players.

We didn't beat a nine man Celtic, I'm sure it was about a four man Celtic. Besides the two that where sent off, most of the rest of the team were passengers. That was two big weekends in a row your team didn't show up... couldn't handle the pressure.

A wudny stay struggled. rangers were pants this year but humped celic twice at ibrox a mean played of the park. and only narrowly got beat at parkhead. graeme

I'm away to my bed, so my fishing rod is away, see you daft gers supporters tomorrow see if you bite as good as you did to this one. lol! HH

It was my post, I don't fish and I'm still awake. It probably is past your bedtime, hurry before you get into trouble...

40.000 putting 500 bucks in each = 20m? You'r fighting fund has failed to raise 300k and that's when the administrators were painting the doomsday scenario.Face it the desire just ain't there mate.

Rangers will adopt a similar wage structure to Celtic under any new owner. It is business 101, a new owner will balance the books and remove 10 million fom the operating costs. This can only be achieved by reducing players wages significantly, and this will reduce the general quality of the squad and the performance of the team in Europe.

It is how Celtic have been trading for years, its the new football reality, live within the means of Scottish Football.

The group stages of the CL will be rare occassions for both OF teams.

Rangers will adopt a similar wage structure to Celtic under any new owner. It is business 101, a new owner will balance the books and remove 10 million fom the operating costs. This can only be achieved by reducing players wages significantly, and this will reduce the general quality of the squad and the performance of the team in Europe.

It is how Celtic have been trading for years, its the new football reality, live within the means of Scottish Football.

The group stages of the CL will be rare occassions for both OF teams.


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Celtic also operate at a loss , hence why their debt rose to appox 11.9 million after thier accounts were last published, with an operating profit for only 800,000. This is expected to drop aswell as celtics average gate dropped by nearly 30% this season. Rangers have been more successful in making money from outgoing transfers within the last 10 years, and performed better in europe, hence why they always have a bigger profit and higher turnover. Its the same for both the old firm, Celtic are in a good position financially, but they will struggle to progress any further as a club unless any investment is made, once Rangers or if Rangers i shud say get this current situation resolved, i believe there will be investment made but not to a substansial level as the squad they have is already good enough to win the league minus a couple of quality players. It will be a few years before Rangers or Celtic are competing at the top level of european football again.

Well somewhere along the line we have to suffer & finishing 2nd in the SPL isnt that big a hardship. It's merely a disappointment. Next season is where we will have to bite the bullet.

Come on fellow bears wake up it going to take us years to recover

Raise 20 mill, yer havin a laugh, yer fightin fund canna even raise half a mill and this forum is full of threats of not renewing season tickets, good luck wi your fundraiser.

We r bottlers sums you lot up in the state you r in and clutching at straws Celtic deserve to be champs and you know it 15 points mcoist blew and u think that's the man to take u forward his signings have been a joke got you pumped out of Europe twice by minnows out the league cup to a team a division below you and pumped out the Scottish cup in your own backyard but beat champions elect Celtic and everything is okay think the bottlers wear blue championees championees

Celtic also operate at a loss , hence why their debt rose to appox 11.9 million after thier accounts were last published, with an operating profit for only 800,000. This is expected to drop aswell as celtics average gate dropped by nearly 30% this season. Rangers have been more successful in making money from outgoing transfers within the last 10 years, and performed better in europe, hence why they always have a bigger profit and higher turnover. Its the same for both the old firm, Celtic are in a good position financially, but they will struggle to progress any further as a club unless any investment is made, once Rangers or if Rangers i shud say get this current situation resolved, i believe there will be investment made but not to a substansial level as the squad they have is already good enough to win the league minus a couple of quality players. It will be a few years before Rangers or Celtic are competing at the top level of european football again.



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I think your sniffing glue, Celtic do not operate at a loss hence why they have profit and this 11.9m is a false number. Celtics bank debt is only 7m and that is being brought down and also these are interim results not full. That was just quaterly results. Celtic make more than enough to cover the wage bills and all other creditors unlike Rangers. Dont talk about what you dont know, Rangers may have made more from transfers but I think thats more down to the fact Rangers have had to sell players due to the financial situation.

I try, I really try to find empathy for Rangers during all this. I have a lot of friends who are Rangers fans and sure, they are hurting. But then you get clowns like the first replier who make me think "You know what, hell mend them." All we can say so far regards the OF games this season is the home team has won every one of them, still one at Parkhead to come as you know. That the Rangers team on the brink of collapse couldn't find a way to beat Kilmarnock at Ibrox with that huge crowd was nothing short of disgraceful, I've never been so sure of a Rangers win in my life but nope, utter garbage, takes till April to record a win v St Mirren, endless other poor results and you think WE'VE got problems, delusional at best. And please don't give me the admin nonsense Dundee won 11 straight games after going into admin last year, players rolled up there sleeves and got on with their job on a fraction of Rangers players wages. Papac couldn't even give you 44 minutes that day. So if some of you really think beating us at Ibrox a few weeks ago really was a portent for the short term future of Scottish football good luck to you but I think its time some of you really got your bluenoses a bit closer to the Nescafe jar.
Gaz

09 Apr 2012 17:47:58
With the season end upon us what are the thoughts of Rangers fans on season book renewal?Looking at the levels of debt it seems likely that liquidation is inevitable.Will Rangers get the numbers to make a difference?How will they be sold if div 3 is the outcome?With a possible scottish cup ban added to no european football are season books worth it?

Think your on the Wrong Site, Liqudation Inevitable? How do you Know this? are you an expert? Because as far as any Person can see, Liqudation is the worst case cenario.

This is a very good question...
Should we even buy season tickets at all if the money is going towards the Ticketus debt and not to the club itself?

I think that the season ticket holders (of which I am one) should consider paying a one of season ticket fee of average £1500 provided that we are happy with the outcome of the takeover and the new major shareholder(s). If this can be done in a structured manor once we are out of admin then this will generate £60m. Thereafter every four years we pay an extra £500 on top of the normal season ticket price as a transfer kitty for each four year period as this is roughly the period for recycling the team.

This is the hard truth is that no one is going to fund the club other than the fans. Why should they? There is no money to be made in football - ask David Murray as he must be down £100m on top of the potential debt which has been left.

All we want is transparency, the club to pay its debts and to see the best football possible at Ibrox. Everything thing else is meaningless.

Liquidation would make me reconsider my ticket, however, I'd happily buy my ticket even for division 3, with a CVA. I'd rather take a punishment of dropping down the leagues than face the sanctions in the SPL. This would allow Rangers to re-enter an SPL (in whatever condition it finds itself) on merit. I'm sure the other SPL clubs will benifit from a greater share of the cash pot, which would in some way make up for any wrongdoing carried out by those who ran our club over this sorry period.

I can't imagine that they could ask the fans to renew there season tickets at this stage, any fan that signed up and paid there money would need to have there head examined.

Until we know if we have new owners, the outcome of the big tax case and if/when we are coming out of administration who's going to give the current regime there hard earned cash (not me)!

When the time is right, the fans will provide there part in ensuring that the club survives. Until then you'd be better off not pouring more money into a black hole.

jack-o

I'd like to know the score regarding season tickets, I have 3 for the Copeland Front and if I renew them and then we go into Liquidation, what happens, cant see me getting my money back, or if there paid by credit card will i get it back from them.

Liquidation is not inevitable.

If and when we have stability, I still believe as bears we can help with a share issue which could raise significant funds to reduce the debt. I for one know loads of bears who would contribute to the cause.They won't at this moment of time because there is no leadership at present and will not line CW's pockets, we don't know where the money would go.

This is not pie in the sky, we have a worldwide fanbase and could show the football world that we are SIMPLY THE BEST.

And for once no bile from the manky mob of the east end regarding previous share issues. If we have to save our club we shall step up to the mark. THIS IS RANGERS PROBLEM NO ONE ELSE'S.

Stu

It is not inevitable. if we get a cva the debt will b around 10 percent of the 134 mil. if its 10p in the pound it will b 13 million

If they get liquidated, it would be rather an expensive season ticket for the third.

Some folk need to get this div 3 stuff out there head, crazy crazy people

The third reply makes a lot of sense,although the detail may have to be considered to include all fans circumstances.The only people who can re-instate RFC to their rightful position at the top are the fans and this will have to be an ongoing solution not a one off.It can be done,but we the supporters must not think it will be easy,but the rewards will be worth it.

£1500 one off payment and £500 on top of season book price for 4 years? Are you on planet zonk? It's hard enough for some of us to pay season books as it is that's a ridiculous statement to make. Mibi we should just play our youth team and cut right back instead it's not the fans fault this mess.

Gents, all banter etc aside. Before you do sort out season tickets etc, check back in news etc, there was talk that if you bought them then they (depending on what happens) may not be valid and you would have to pay again. Might be wrong but worth a looking at, it is your hard earned cash after all. Scott

If Mr Whyte is still at Helm i for one will not be buying a season book .. and by my watch they have exactly 5 weeks to do that .

Poser isn't it?
You could do what rangers fans have mostly done up to now:
Don't think about it, and don't ask any awkward questions: Just read what one of David Murray's lamb chomping lackeys in the Daily Record has to say about it, blindly accept that as fact, and then slavishly do exactly what they tell you...

It's not easy to consider spending (what is a huge amount for some people) for an unknown product. SPL/Div 1,2,3/Non existant/What Players? Rangers FC may cease to exist legally but they will remain in the hearts and minds of the supporters.

Ha ha, amazing how you all want to step up to the plate to save your club now, bit late now lol

Why are Rangers fans asking about season books, you dont do walking away so get on with it get books bought

"Why are Rangers fans asking about season books, you dont do walking away so get on with it get books bought"

Why would anybody buy their season ticket before any judgment from D&P on the new owners, even then the new owner would have to give assurances that the club will not be Liquidated.
There are to many questions unanswered just now to move forward like the BTC, C Whyte, SPL, Where we will play our games @ Ibrox and in what division, Players. The fans will be last to know what is going to happen to our club.
On the BTC i've wondered why it's taking so long to decide and all i can think is that its 50-50 or close, if it was a clear decision then it would have been announced a while ago, so heres hoping.

Rangers fans buying books before they know whats happens. you know whats happening rangers are in £134m debt no income streams.scottish media prints another fairystory about bidders hey presto warchests new signings all the gullible fans live happily till the next chapter

09 Apr 2012 00:06:39
does anybody no any good young players at rangers other then ness,hutton,cole.fleck.mcabe and perry

They rate Kane Hemmings and Andrew Mitchell very highly. There is also Kal Naismith who is currently on loan at Partick Thistle. I don't really know much about him though, need to ask a jags fan.

GovanFR

Some of the under 17s are shining through, Jamie Burrows, Stuart Urqhart, Frazer Aird and Luca Gasparotto are all regulars in the under 19s.

Charlie telfer and fraser aird ! also chris hegarty very good center lacks concentraton tho

x

Hector are you worried you won't have any first team players left at the end of the season, when everyone walks to teams who can actually pay their wages.

Aye kyle MCcuasland is a good wee player, Kal naismith aswell

Kal Naismith is a real prospect. He plays up front or right wing. He is similar to Kyle Lafferty in height and physique but only with ability

Naw no really. Celtic Under 19s back whaled them 3-0 on Saturday at Murray, sorry Barratt's complex for the elderly

Thistle fan here. Naismith has looked not bad, but injury has limited his chances. We had Hutton at the start of the season, he looks very good at our level and easily a premier league player.

Grant Adam looks a decent keeper also.

Havnt seen Lewis McLeod but has been a sub a few times recently

No need to panic laff a minute says you have the best young players and the best older players so the future looks good !

Barry mckay is one for the near future

Have you seen Grant Adam, he is stinkin!

Anthony Merengui should be in the first team!

Darren ramsy u17 playing for the u19s . One to watch out for

CHRIS HEGARTY concentration problem dont think so bit of a green eyed monster theiir hes good in the air can read the game and has great timeing 1 to watch