Rangers Rumours Archive May 24 2012

24 May 2012 22:01:23
Fellow gers supporters. I gave this scenario to RST at the start of this fiasco as how to solve this crisis ( which was dismissed )

Firstly, everyone who has owned the club has borrowed money, in one way shape or form, which has led to where we are today.

Has this lesson been learned from? NO. The new people scrambling to buy the club are using other peoples money, yet again, for their own personal gains, and not for the benefit of the club.

With this in mind, I gave RST the following proposal.

40,000 season ticket holders

Issue 60,000 shares in GRFC PLC and list on AIM stock exchange.

Each of the 40,000 season ticket holders buys 1 share in GRFC for 1000 GBP. The 1000 is paid over 5 years via a loan. It costs each fan 30 pounds a month for 5 years.

The club however, receives the funds upfront from the 40,000 loans taken out by the fans.

The club has now raised 40 million instantly, and is owned by the fans,who in turn are delighted to be RFC shareholders, so works all round.

This preserves the club, gives it immediate working capital to survive, and allows the CVA to be negotiated out at an acceptable rate of around 20p in the pound giving creditors a payout of 15.5 million, leaving 24.5 million as operating capital.

The remaining 20,000 shares would be sold off to corporate entities to raise a further 20 million pounds, leaving the club securely owned by fans, and leaving the corporates in the background on a publicly listed company.

On a personal note, I came from easterhouse, made it good in the mobile industry, and don't have the funds to buy the club, but I do have the necessary know how to make sure the above happened.

This was ignored by D&P, and RST, and is a much better deal than with the new guys, who were in the paper last week saying they were putting money in, and getting percentages of transfer fees in return etc etc.

The above scenario is how we save our club, preserve our history, and more importantly, get back our dignity from this mess that's been created by borrowing for the last 20 years, and all these so called " multi millionaires" fleecing our club dry, asset stripping ans so on.

We, my fellow supporters, have this opportunity to take control, and put a much better proposition on the table than any I have seen, with a much better CVA exit opportunity and funding for the club.

I don't know who runs this site, or if this will be printed online, but I hope it does, because, we have listened to these so called multi millionaires for too long, and by coming together as a group of supporters, and in effect crowd funding our club, we can make this happen.

It is not too late, if this is published, D&P are removed ( highly likely by Monday ) and we get together and get the above done and agreed with the creditors. I am willing to help put this together, if you are all willing and see the common sense of the above proposal.

I could not agree more. I for one would be prepared to pay more than this as I do not look upon it as an investment and don't care about the shares as this is simply about the survival of the club. If not now then at some point this has to happen - we need a focal point/figure head and we need to pay back the lawful debt or our reputation will never be recovered

Only problem is who will loan the initial 40 million to a club with zero credit rating and any time Murray tried to sell his shares he never raised more than a million but do agree it would be a good model just can't see it happening sorry. he

I would definitely buy into a scheme like this, however, I feel that not all the dirt has been unearthed yet. That is why there has been no realistic buyer yet

Agree with o/p and the first reply.Make one supporters group speaking for all supporters.The only drawback I see who do we trust now.

You have raised �0.5m in four months through the fighting fund and you really expect to raise �40m? That's 1.5m a year so you should have a takeover In about 26.5 years! Also why should you have more operating capital than money offered to creditors? Pay ALL your debt.

It is good to see a true fan wanting to help. I for onee would invest but no surprise RSA dismissed it, it is them and RST who should be dismissed.
I think there would be many problems and there must be tens of thousands of fans who are not season ticket holders, they too should be able to invest.

And the biggest problem is who has final say. 40,000 supporters are never going to agree anything together

You tell us that previous owners have all borrowed money ie other people's money. Then what do you ask us to do? BORROW money to raise capital! What's the difference?

Who provides the credit for each season ticket holder's loan? What happens if season ticket holders start defaulting on the �30pm? Who is going to give rfc �40m cash front loaded? And at what interest rate? Look at how much your fighting fund has raised in 4 month...�0.5m, so this means that you would only need to find a further �39,500,000. Laughable. Time to face facts, its too late to start banding about crackpot theories to save the club.

David murray had a share option and raised �1 million from "loyal" fans, and then had to put up the rest. So can't see this working at all.

30 a month over 5 year is more than 1000 then what happens after the first year where does the money come from if the initial 40 million is over 5 year

Why moan about people using other peoples money to buy the club then suggest that 40,000 people use someone elses money to buy the club?

Let me get this right. Your solution to people using other people's money to buy the club is for the fans to borrow money from other people to buy the club. How is this different?

Why would anyone put themselves into debt so that plonkers like Kyle Lafferty can continue to earn 20k a week. - Jaxie

I would be up for this,and im sure not all would have to borrow, but surely this has to be an answer

So if I buy a season ticket it year one, I am signing up to say I will renew for the following 4 years AND pay an extra �30 a month on the side!

Doesn't sound too workable I am afraid

As if 40,000 fans are going to coff up a grand each, doing the dying fly here..dream on.

How do 40,000 low credit rating, high credit risks get a �1000 loan to start with.
Wonga or the provi??

I agree, however this was basically TBK plan, if they had been successful in the first place.

I would go a step further and say that the shareholder and or anyone else who wants to should also pay �100 per year membership fee, which in return you get match day ticket preferences, the rangers news, raffles every week, etc.

This would provide another funding stream for the club. This would be more aimed at overseas fans, and those no longer attending games, giving them away of staying in touch with the club and contributing in ways other than attending matches.

If you are a season ticket holder and a shareholder then either the �100 per year is waived completely or reduced significantly.

IMO this sort of subscription based membership/ownership is the only way for Rangers to receive sustainable long term investment.

"How do 40,000 low credit rating, high credit risks get a �1000 loan to start with.
Wonga or the provi?"
--

You really shouldn't assume everyone is in the same position as yourself.

Nice plan pity the Rangers fans have had many chances to invest and have(unlike true fans) failed miserably, let the rats drown!! VEGIEBHOY

Hello! my name is Peter Bean your friendly debt expert!

We could be known as the Glasgow TIC aw no thats been dun!

Tic fan here. The concept is absolutely spot on ! There are models out there EG Barca , Green Bay packers, most of German clubs. Will it be easy ? of course not ! But is can be done . What is the alternative ? More " venture capitalists " and spivs lining up to asset strip your club . I would love Celtic to have a fans base model instead of relying on the whims of multi - milliomaires who IE Desmond , who can walk away anytime it suits them . Gers fans ! look what is in front of you - Green is Whyte !

Celtic Fan hear, just on to commend the idea and think it would be a fantastic way out of your predicament and although unlikely to succeed would wish all genuine rangers fans willing and able to participate to get behind it

This is a great idea in theory.
My concern is how it would be applied in practice.
If Murray & Kennedy were only willing to put up 8.5 million at the outset,then issue the share option at later date(which would by the way be well sup ported) then why didn't they go with this idea?
To the "Numpties" who are suggesting the share option won't be successful, you haven't got a clue. DM's share offer was a different scenario altogether.
The BK's plan is along the same lines as what Celtic done. Totally different to what DM was doing. As for the jokers comparing the RFFF to the Share plan,grow up. And in case you have forgotten,it was Brian Dempsey who stumped up �1million to tide Celtic over until "The wee man in the bunnet" stepped in,not the Celtic fans,why? Because you did not want to put your money upfront either,because you didn't want "you're Whites" to get it,and until you found out more about the new owners.
So "Button it" because you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
P.O.B.

I think this is a great idea with all the publicity we have had about the club there are more people than just the season ticket holders who want to save the club. And would be willing to put �1000 up to do it

�30 a month over 5 year is �1800 where does the 800 go

"David murray had a share option and raised �1 million from "loyal" fans, and then had to put up the rest. So can't see this working at all."
You wish... the bank might have "put up the rest". That little creep was too busy counting his EBT millions!

Yes 30*60 is 1800... But then gain no loan is interest feee! Especially over 5years

Thats the craziest proposal i have ever heard, dont want people in that borrowing yet you want 40000 fans to borrow to pay for this brainwave.what about the time sdm floated the club and raised......what was it....? 1 million...and you want to raise how much? take your punishment and work your way back, end of.

I think this is the best model for all football clubs. Unfortunately in this case �40M will not be enough if the BTC case is lost. It would be back to liquidation scenario, meaning that �40M from decent fans would be in vain.

"Unfortunately in this case �40M will not be enough if the BTC case is lost. It would be back to liquidation scenario, meaning that �40M from decent fans would be in vain."
--

The current CVA proposal takes into account any monies owed as a result of TBC

Just sounds like another wanabee having his 5 seconds in the sun. Remember HMRC wants more than 20p in the pound he wants a high profile head on a stick before he goes down to frighten the Premiership over EBT's. End of story.

I have been calling for something similar all along, there is plenty of fans who like me if were offered a role in the clubs survival for �1000 would jump at the chance, plenty of people can spare a grand with little sacrifice to living standards doesnt have to be only season ticket holders. And it neednt stop there, we could then open up a route for people to donate money to take the club foward be it a pound a month or a 100 pound through a direct debit system. Who really would miss a fiver a month if they are employed. Less than 20 fags costs or 20 mile in your motor. Pay the debt, be honest hope we get some big donations along the way and come out proud of our efforts. You get this going mate im in, the rfff is a guise i dont trust where the money is going but i have been patiently waiting for this scenario to materialise then my money will go to that good luck but feel it may be to late

ED, you can verify I am so by my IP address.

Guys, firstly thanks for all your comments, highly appreciated.
Couple of points
1:) to the poster who said I am an another wane be.
A) I did state that I could not buy RFC on my own, but I had the necessary know how to put a fans deal together on the public AIM stock exchange. I " wannabe " like my great grandfather, my grandfather, my father and support Glasgow rangers FC. I wannabe in a position where I can hold my head high as a rangers supporter, and not see my team dragged through the mire, the way it is now. I wannabe someone who will put my money where my mouth is, and save the club generations of my family supported long before me, and generations will long after my time on earth is over. I wannabe able to watch my team compete in Europe, the league, in cups and win trophies again. I don't need fame, fortune, millions of pounds to do so. I need to get fans into the same thought train as me, so TOGETHER we pull our resources, and don't see the same mistakes made at our club again.

We don't need wannabe publicity seekers, multi millionaires ( real or pretend ) running the show. What we need is our core worldwide fan base buying into this idea, thus by " pooling" our global resources, and " buying" our club, we save it from not only extinction, but from the mortal embarrassment the two previous owners have caused.

Everyone was rallying around when they thought Walter and John were on board one of these bids. Do you not think, that these two astute people would join a fans buyout of the club, and run it on behalf of the fans, rather than run it on behalf of the " mutil group of investors " we are meant to have.

This scheme raises an initial 40 million pounds. It's not a loan from the bank, and it's not a loan from fans. It's about a worldwide group of rangers supporters coming together to save the club, and BUY shares in it, which can be passed on down through our next generation of supporters, families and friends.

It's not about handing over 40 million and its all gone. I have a fair idea on the pence in the pound CVA figure required. The club will still have its sponsorship money, season ticket monies etc etc. this scheme puts the club back on a sound financial footing, gives it a chance to breathe again and gain further investment in the future from being on the AIM stock exchange.

I'm sorry, but most true fans can afford 8-10 pounds per week for this scheme, and yes, to the poster who said some incentives should be given, 1 100% agree. Free signed rangers shirts by the team, corporate entertainment rotated as a reward for the people who help, meet the team, tours around the club, your name enshrined somewhere as a token of thanks, and so on and so forth, and if the club gets back to solid financial footings, then the club could repay the loan etc etc. many things could happen under this scheme.

More importantly,by investing in this scheme, to buy the club, for 8 pounds a week, you will have saved it's history, it's founding principles, your families history, and the future history for our children and future generations.

As one poster stated, cut out 1 pack of cigarettes, or three pints a week, get healthy and save our club, history and legacy in the world of football.

Rangers Football Club " Ready " are you ?

Ed has my email address for all interested parties. It's never to late, the fat ladies not sung yet, neither has the tax case been lost. {Ed013's Note - I can verify that your IP address is from Fife, but I can only apologize in regards to your email as it must be another Ed with it. Good luck with your cause}

24 May 2012 19:28:40
And i quote "Mr Grier also addressed the crisis facing the club as it tries to find a buyer. He said the "sad reality" is that the "appetite of the buyers is not tremendously strong".

Administrators previously announced they had entered into a "binding agreement" with a consortium led by ex-Sheffield United chief executive Charles Green that would see £8.5m used to pay off Duff and Phelps and all secured and unsecured creditors.

They had set a "target date" of June 6 to hold a meeting of creditors to vote on company voluntary arrangement (CVA) proposals, but that has been delayed as the offer pence in the pound deal has still not been sent out. There is a statutory requirement for insolvency practitioners to send out any creditors' proposals at least 14 days before a meeting takes place.

Mr Grier added: "We are optimistic that the present bidder Charles Green will complete matters in due course."

Bl**dy hell. 

Greir was cash flow director at hbos in late 1990's &early 2000's. discuss

This report is from STV online....D&P have not yet made a CVA offer to Creditors.
A minimum 14 days is required hence if the offer goes out tomorrow, the meeting to decide should be Friday 8th June.

I wonder if there's still a way for Green to walk away? I don't get the sense that anything is totally binding regardless of how "unconditional" the bid had to be.

Nothing is binding. It's his inalienable right to walk away if he wishes.
Omg Grier worked at HBOS and RBS?? The worst two British bank collapses I ever??

Could Grier have been responsible for giving Murray �943m of HBOS money? Then turn up with Whyte to advise on buying Rangers? (as a banking consultant to Lloyds?) whilst working for D&P?
Surely Lord Hodge should not have allowed D&P to be appointed administrators? I recall that he perhaps broke Scottish procedural law on that decision?

There is money to be made by the owners if RFC go into Liquidation.

Jeeeeez

We were told Green takes ownership of Whytes shares on 6th June if Creditors accept CVA.

No CVA has been offered to Creditors yet hence CVA meeting cannot proceed on Zjune 6th, hence Green doesn't get shares.

24 May 2012 18:24:17
it will come out very soon that mr green has inside connections to mr whyte . ...liquidation was always on the agenda with whoever was the successfull bidder ....yes the previous owner etc are culpable to the demise of our club but thats history and it can be sorted with respectable new owners who will pay taxes....mr.murray and whyte should be personally punished for all this and the club will move on ...if it is liquidated it will be a crime of unsizeable proportions as this can be fixed with th eproper person or persons.....mr green is not the man for the job as mistakes have been made already ....we have millions should have been a statement made after all the s**t hit the fan and not before....typical english mouthpiece ...deecee

Yes this rumour is nearly true
but what you have failed to realise is that 4 months from now whyte WILL be seen to have saved rangers from extinction

Nice to see you have joined the real world.I remember your posts in support of green,took you long enough.

24 May 2012 18:02:03
well,in the midst of the allegations,the tax problems,the sanctions,the dodgy takeover deals,the venture capitalist vultures,the man who sold the jerseys and the admin fiasco.Its 40 years to the day that the lads did the business in the cup winners cup.Today,im using that as a point of pride in this whole horrible mess.Well done lads,something to really be proud of.
Drumlad.

How did defending that go for you? Another record that Scotland's Shame can lay claim to. The only team banned from defending a European trophy because of their fans behaviour. I bet Manchester is glad you didn't win down there as well. It would have been even worse for them. Europe can breathe a HUGE sigh of relief, it will be a long time before their 'fans' will be unleashed on the continent for a while.

Winning the Inter Tot of its day is hardly earth shattering

Although, to be fair, it took three pitch invasions to knock moscow off their stride as they battled back from 3-0 down to 3-2 and to convince the referee to whistle up with two minutes left to secure the 'tainted' title. ...

Playing improperly registered players in euro matches will be looked at by EUFA with Rangers FC most likely being banned from all competitions for years.

U have to laugh at the haters, Grow up!.

CJM

Guys you all beat me to it. Talk about opening youself up for ridicule at the most inopportune moment. Wouldn't surprise me if rangers cheated their way to the ecwc "win". There are many ways to do this if your used to it.

Did the original poster REALLY submit that? FFS I must have eaten magic mushies on that kebab. That's just shy of celebrating Craig Whyte's takeover!

How can u be proud when the fans got your club banned by invading the pitch 5 times and also fighting with the police.then again better than the fiasco thats going on just now

And its 41 years and 17 days since celtic won the scottish cup in 1971 and rangers qualified for that tournament because celtic had also won the league. the trophy became known as the cup runners up cup because so many of the teams in it were not cup winners and was eventually stopped.

Just like there were so many teams in the Champions League that weren't champions that it was stopped

24 May 2012 17:44:28
After Wednesday evenings expose on
TV on who sold the Jersey I am surprised that the main focus from the fans on this
site is about D&P or Craig Whyte.

Surely more should be on the man who has brought Rangers to wher we are today
David Murray.

David Murray never used his money to buy Rangers he borrowed the money from the Bank of Scotland. Craig Whye just followed the same plan.

Who was the Bank of Scotland Banker?

Maybe the same one who was so eager to close celtic when they had a �1mm loan?

H ave just heard from a friend at ibrox duff and phelps have applied to go into administration on may 31st

There are so many things we could focus on
but Sir David Murray is in the past
a disgusting disgraceful shameful past
but he is history
a despicable deplorable history
but I have forgotten him
Sir who?
How do you get a knighthood for that?

I think the Bank of Scotland banker was a bankers banker and a bit of a banker into the bargain.probably the bank of scotland banker that couldn't wait to close The Scottish Champions down in 1994.

Look up Gavin Masterton,I think.Head honcho at BOS,pal of SDM and current owner of Dunfermline FC.

Gavin masterton retired years ago. Any rangers lending facility of recent years were controllled by Lloyds. who placed an inordinate pressure on Murray to sell to whyte. this is despite Rangers never defaulting on any loan payments

24 May 2012 17:22:28
SPL demanding Rangers hand over documents regarding the dual contracts.

Ed, maybe I'm wrong here but couldnt the SPL just get these documents from the BBC considering the BBC feel they have all the evidence required to prove Rangers were using dual contracts?

How concrete do you think the BBC's documents are?

TTG {Ed014's Note - If the BBC couldn't prove what they said,they wouldn't have said it.

Also if the bbc had documents they would have o prove were they got them from as if they were illegally source rangers could easily sue the bbc. {Ed014's Note - No they wouldn't.

The BBC legal team review everything before it goes live. They have a watertight legal case that they have not told any lies.
It needed to go on tv so that we know it's all true and not just rumours.

The bbc also never showed one, not one single side letter they claim to have.

Hi ED
if the bbc had any real proof of dual contracts why did they not show them. they showed every other document they said they had i e emails from duff and phelps minutes of meetings etc i know they said they had proof but correct me if im wrong but no proof was shown. by the way i have proof that Neil Lennon is the illegitimate son of Walter Smith do you believe me because i say i have proof or would you like to see this said proof.

im not saying that no player had a dual contract im just stating that i dont think as of yet the bbc can prove it

Lochaber Bear {Ed014's Note - Can you prove that in a court of law?I'd bet the beeb could.

If they need to show the letters they will ya muppet. they are not going to broadcast all this if they didn't have the proof to back it up. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Ed why not prove it then ontv

The BBC said they have evidence of side letters, not the side letters themselves.

Ed thats the point who is going to throw money at trying to sue the BBC as no one at Rangers has, this is the same day the government has asked the BBC to come clean with all the high earners who are using tax avoidance schemes, aye one rule and all that

Ya muppet ? I'm sorry but if you have 100 per cent proof in the way of a letter or such you show it at the beginning in the middle and the end why on earth would you not, only a muppet editor wouldnt include it in the programme if it existed

If memory serves me all Scottish Clubs were asked about EBT's and asked to respond by a certain date and it is my understanding that Rangers FC are the only ones who have failed to respond to that request.

If anyone thinks that the evidence doe's not exist then they really need as much help as Rangers.

Bears, do you honestly think that an institution like the BBC would air this as fact if they were not 100% certain of the facts...come on. Not to mention the best lawyers in the land that would have analysed these and subsequently passed. It happened, they exist. If D&P were so sure as well of their facts then why tonight did they come out with a statement that they are CONSIDERING a writ...If innocent then what's to consider?.

24 May 2012 16:48:07
Why as it taken so long for some people to realize something was wrong with the appointment of Duff & Phelps by Craig Whyte

Das Shadow

Their has been constant rumours on here, saying d and p are with whyte scam..jsm

To be fair I have posted many times about D&P having to abide  by the court rules and the legislation of insolvency. For that there is no quibble. But the fact MCR where bought by D&P after Whyte took control, that MCR had dealings with Whyte prior to the purchase and then ex MCR staff where put forward by D&P is just taking the p**s. The court should tackle this, in the very least, as an undisclosed conflict of interest. I would imagine at the the fee's are now safe as if they get kicked out they cant charge. Other thing though. How likely is it that creditors will do business with D&P? I know i would not, least of all Ticketus! They were part of/or had knowledge of the deal that got them into this mess!!! 

Grier was Donald Murrays school chum (alledgedly)
And also worked for the B O S on client accounts so David murrays hands still all over this .
Whyte ,Grier & D&P are still doing murrays bidding. yous really need to stop blaming and start asking serious questions before its to late

24 May 2012 16:34:56
What I would like to know and ask is, if David Grier did in fact know about and was part of the Ticketus deal, as highlighted by the program last night, how much was his commission??  Also. Did Duff and Phelps  know the guys put forward for the Admins of Rangers, formally if MCR and bought by Duff and Phelps, know that they where already involved? 
to me it sounds like Whyte was very aware of MCR, that MCR could have made money from the Ticketus deal and that Duff and Phelps where also misled by the MCR staff they bought into.  What a S**t fest. I would expect HMRC to ask for Duff and Phelps to be replaced at the very least. 

If Whyte had shown MCR and MHI proof of funds to acquire the club and that he had sufficient working capital to cover the close season last summer, then why would Ticketus even come come up in any conversation pre-sale? Stinks to high heavens.

Last post blows Grier's rebuttle out of the water.

As a non Rangers fan may I ask why you are so bothered about who knew what then? Now is now and one thing RFC(IA) is desperately short of is time. RFC(IA) are in a life or death poker game with a very poor hand but the only agency that can play it for them is D & P.

24 May 2012 14:20:10
After last nights embaressment if there is to be a newco it should be fan owned and start from the bottom like afc wimbledon. FC Manchester. NO MORE lining the pockets of the rich from the pockets of the working man nd woman so they can look down on us cause WE ARE THE PEOPLE. and with out us they are nothing.

Inverbear

Probs about time we ditched watp. Starting to make us look foolish

It's an interesting fact that whilst the likes of Chelsea and Man City (and to a lesser extent, Rangers) have bought success through benefactors (or borrowing!) and operated at a loss, Bayern Munich are owned my club members and manage to turn in a profit. Glasgow is a city like Munich, so why shouldn't the same model work at Rangers?

...I'll add that the approach needs to be more grown up than simply re-quoting WATP every time a reason for moving forward is proposed.

Probably needs some business-minded fans to start the process rolling rather than get-rich-quick "fans" we've seen lately.

McWulf

Should that not be 'were the peepul'

Totally agree,start new club with total fan backing and let the conmen try and get any value out of whats left of rangers,who wants a listed building in a crap area or a training ground that cant be built on ,eventually buy ibrox and build trainin pitches nearby ,plenty of cheap land 4 pitches and indoor training nearby

WE ARE THE PEOPLE gets us nowhere; for goodness sake, wake and grow up its 2012 not blinking 1690!

Yes, I have to agree the WATP statement is making decent ger fans a laughing stock and should cease forthwith. Why don't you just settle for being decent fans like the rest of Scottish football> it has been this WATP attitude that has helped liquidate your club !! Yes I know I have said liquidate as that is what will happen. Unfortunate, for all decent Rangers fans>

24 May 2012 13:51:46
why is Paul murray considered credible? He as on the board at times of EBT's yet did nothing

he knows full well the distinction between D&P assising whyte to raise working capital from ticketus rather than as takeover funds. more publicity again for the teflon ex director

Listen Timmothy, you seem to have a lack of knowledge.
EBTs were shown on Rangers books, and they were NOT illegal, HMRC are now trying to prove that Gers did avoid tax...that's why it's at court.
Companies all over the UK will fold if this goes against Rangers....HMRC are scared to open a can of ''legal'' worms, because it will be chaos.
The big tax case would have been decided long before now if it was cut and dried....how difficult can it be to make a decision, not difficult at all....Rangers cheated or they never,,.....simples, but still no verdict. Nonsense...

If you think anyone had a say in things under SDM's reign you're having a laugh. Yes he was on the board when the EBT's were still being used, but Grant Thornton had signed off on the accounts for 10 years and they didn't have a problem. It was public information that they existed and nobody raised any questions about them. The clean audit report combined with SDM running the club as a one man ego boost makes it difficult to see how he should have done anything. At the time it was seen as legal.

Don't hold EBTs against anyone. Their use was advised by professionals and are used at a number of English clubs too (and who are looking closely at the BTC).

I would question PM on his involvement with DM, though. He's not any kind of hero coming in to save the day.

"Listen Timmothy, you seem to have a lack of knowledge.
EBTs were shown on Rangers books, and they were NOT illegal, HMRC are now trying to prove that Gers did avoid tax...that's why it's at court."

Very few companies were as reckless with their use of EBTs as Rangers were.

Rangers have already been found guilty. The FTT or "big tax case" is an appeal.

EBTs were legal as long as they weren't used to pay contractual monies. The letter to Watterus's agent saying he wouldn't be paid this amount unless it was through the renumeration fund completely blows that idea out of the water.

There is a lack of knowledge but its not from Timmothy.

Why take the position of director ? I just question the guys credibility, guys with substance wouldnt be stooges on a board simply to enjoy the perks...

the other point is that he understands that Whyte could have said he was raising working capital - he is not being honest if he says that wasnt a possibility
to me it seems like sour grapes with D & P.

I think a lot of bears miss the point about EBT's the problem is that they were not stipulated in players contracts and therefore the players were not registered properly. No matter which way the tax case goes that fact remains and Rangers will lose 3 pts per match in which any EBT players played.

Oh yes, and the double contracts which make the players illegal (including Barry Ferguson).
This is going to go on for a loooong time.
Fraud within Bank Of Scotland. (who sanctioned the loans). (Was this all above board)
Uefa enquiry double contracts - gauranteed. (Waiting to see SFA/SPL in/action)

What about the moral argument ? The EBT's may , and I say may , have been legal but where is the morality in an employer using an offshore tax haven to issue payments to it's emplyees SO THAT THE PAYMENT OF TAX CAN BE AVOIDED on their earnings ? Can you and I , Joe Soaps all, tap into this little tax avoidance/evasion ( the both are the same to me ) scheme. NO WE CANNOT ! The jargon is that these payments were loans. Tell me , when are the beneficiaries going to pay back these loans ? yer mcCanns, and Novos , and fergusons, and sounesses. to name but a few of the 63 players involved. It all makes you utterly sick to the back teeth !

Any self employed Joe Soap with a good accountant will try to avoid paying a penny more than they have too in tax, as has been said loads and loads of times EBTs were legal until the loop-whole was closed by HRMC , let's wait and see the result of the tribunal B4 we get carried away, what I find most amusing is all these tax experts, accountants across the country must be worried

24 May 2012 13:11:23
MFI - 1400 employees
Turnover £800,000,000
Administration Nov 2008 - May 2011
D & P Fees £1,233,143 of which they drew £1,000,000

Borders - 1946 employees
Turnover £218,000,000
Administration Nov 2009 - May 2011
D& P Fees £1,272,840 of which they drew £1,270,000

Adams Childrenswear - 2,000-3,000 employees Turnover £150,000,000 Administration Jan 2010 - March 2010 D& P Fees £402,000

Rangers Football Club - 300 employees
Turnover £56,000,000
Administration Feb 14 2012 - 31st March 2012 D & P fees - £1,199,356 and ongoing

Make your own mind up!

You just know CW was making money from those actions. Love someone to prove it

And if you look carefully you will find many many more - this is going to be a �3 million pound job for those boys. Who is duffer here :-)

If they were appointed by Whyte and with his record they should be treated the same way as he was "Parasites"

As many bears have said recently (in respect of those owed money by Rangers FC ) well that's just business for you.

You all seem to be avoiding the main guilty person.

David Murray

The rest are his consequences.

Before we get carrried away with suggesting (or worse) that D&P are at it lets consider the facts.

In the other situations they were dealing with going concerns that ran into cashflow problems. In the case of the Gers they have come up against a tangled web of financial deceit.

The cost they charge is based on the work they do. In the case of Rangers they have in all probability had to do a lot more work to try and find both a buyer and missing monies.

I'm not saying that the price administrators charge is fair all I am saying is that given the complexity of the problem it could well be that the charges they levelling are consistent with their normal charges.

Anyway they are appointed by the court and as such are ultimately answerable to the court. - Whyte may have picked them but the court still had to rubber stamp it! - Jaxie

24 May 2012 11:16:37
Does anybody think Novo will pay his EBT "loan" back? That would be a true gesture instead of his pathetic appearance at the rfff march.Rangers made lots of these guys millionaires,time to ask for the "loans" back? Even billy dodds,who denied having an EBT only three months ago,has been caught.Asking REAL fans to shell out in these tough times while these posers slink away with their tax free dodges is shameless.

Why should he pay any of it back?? He was told that it was part of his contract not his fault that someone maybe administered the scheme wrong!

If he was told it was part of his contract thats illegal. They are loans.

Novo shouldnt have to pay none of it back none of the employees should have to,

however if it was administrated wrongly then we should pay the paye and ni that would have been due at the time and then any penalty that hmrc put in place for dodging it the first time around,

Billy Dodds and Neil mccann !Both been pontificating about the sorry state rangers are in and that their should be no boycotts of other fans sanctions as it would " hurt the club " The hippocracy here is staggering ! I do not want to see any of their faces on the telly again . And while were at it souness has a bloody cheek offering his " Loyal support to the cause " when he trousered 30 K 10 YEARS AFTER he left rangers ! Will somebody please ask him what all that was about please.

If these are loans and not contractual payments and if they are interest free loans they should be liable to a benefit-in-kind tax for all those who got them, no?

Can I ask what about Marvin Andrews ? Holyer than thou.

If any of these players loved ur club as much as they claimed, u think they would have a heart and give at least half of it back and chase murray 4 it back in court

I don't know what's more worrying, the directors who skinned our club, or the idiots bellowing about ex-players paying back money they thought they were legally getting paid

Anyone like a bet that steven davis has played his last game for rangers..maybe not ..... maybe he will payback the �600,00 he got ................ he is off ..................

What about our current captain ?

I tghink it's an absolute disgrace for any of you to be on here or anywhere else saying that players should have to pay back their wages. At the end of the day that's what these payments were - WAGES - they were not not sweeteners or loyalty patyments or anything else, they were part of a player's wage packet but the club chose to use this method to implement these payments, no fault of the players, they did not make the decision on how they were paid. The Ronald Wattereuss case springs to mind because clearly what was happening was we were looking to sign a player, obviously met the agent etc and the agent has told the club what their client's wage demands (including appearance fees, win bonus etc) and the club, in order to be able to afford to meet the players demands, have chosen to pay the majority of their WAGES through the EBT scheme whereas if the payments had all been made above board then it raises serious questions about whether we would have otherwise been able to complete the signings. This whole thing makes me feel physically sick and it gets worse everytime I hear things like this, all you so-called supporters need to stop trying to blame everyone else and stop making excuses for the people that have been running our club, implementing these measures and have completely destroyed the club that I love to the point where it's almost beyond saving and have forever tarnished our reputation. Absolutely disgraceful.
Jay
TrueBlue

Jay trueblue 1 question, what did souness get his 30,00 for?

"Jay trueblue 1 question, what did souness get his 30,00 for?"

An excellent point mate, cheers, I actually meant to include a wee bit about that but was on a bit of a rant and forgot lol. I can't argue with that at all to be fair, that to me is completely suspect, for someone to be taking that sum of cash 10 years after they've left is absolutely ridiculous and I hope that this gets investigated as well. Also, I just want to add that I'm not advocating the use of the EBT's at all I just think it's unfair to be blaming the players when it was really nothing to do with them. Take Papac for example, it mentioned about his contractual salary(ie the one lodged with the SFA) was reduced from a previous season and when queried it was found that he no longer had appearance fees etc included in his wage and was obviously instead having this paid through the EBT and from the allegations made, the players had letters promising them the payment so as far as the player is concerned their still receiving the wage they agreed to and negotiated for it's just being paid to them by a different method so I don't think the players have anything to answer for in this whole mess.
Jay
True Blue

You make a good point about players wages, last time I checked though those players were employed in the UK and therefore should have paid taxes.

If players like Barry got 2.5 mil tax free then he should be paying his taxes at 40% like anyone else earning that amount would have to. The taxman has every right to chase the players for this if it was a side contract for wages and can be proven - and they should do.

Is it possible the payment made to Souness was to do with the shares he had in Rangers from when Murray took over.

I seem to remember that Souness fronted something like 10% of the purchase price from Lawrence Malborough.

I think he was also forced to sell the shares when he left to go to Liverpool. Maybe he was due more money! I know this is unlikely but who knows? - Jaxie

I agree with you completely it should have had tax paid on it and quite rightly as you point out also, it clearly falls into the higher tax bracket but being realistic I doubt the average football player, especially some of the ones that have played for us over the years, are clued up on the ins and outs of tax loopholes so if their moving to a club that's as big as Rangers then you would surely be entitled to believe that if the directors and chairman of that club are advocating this as a legal method for you to receive your salary, which is why as I said in my OP that I believe the blame for this mess lies clearly with Murray et al, as they were ultimately responsible fpor sanctioning the use of the EBT.
Jay
TrueBlue

No
The side letters absolve them from paying any tax and make RFC liable for it.
Players have nothing to be guilty about.

24 May 2012 00:41:53
Have just emailed jim Hannah telling him what I think of the decision to spend our money on a new pitch. How dare they, that is not what was on offer, it was to pay small creditors and to keep the club going, not for grass seed or weedkiller.
The gross mismanagement of money is clearly alive and kicking in the form of RFF.
I cannot believe that when we are struggling to put a team on this glorious pitch, that a glorious pitch is the goal.

No wonder we are in the mess we are with ridiculous decisions having been made for years, and these clowns think the fans money should be spent on a nice lawn, and more worryingly they plaster this over the Rangers website as if this is a huge plus point, talk about being out of touch with the feelings of true fans.

The whole lot, Hannah, Jardine and anybody else that was involved in this decision should be ashamed. You are no better than Murray, Whyte, and all the other sheisters

What this fiasco has taught us is not one of them is worthy and they should all be shipped out. In fact they can take the RST with them because they are the most appalling mob ever to exist. Talk about being out of touch, they demand no price increase. Now I would be happy, in our hour of need, to give an extra £50. What must Green think, he gets accosted by the mob and that is their first demand. They don't peak for me. Just remember this is the same lot that grilled Whyte by asking when accounts would be submitted, do you know grow a pair and ask him where the money has gone and why he is a lying bar steward. Ad long as they get five minutes on the telly they are happy.

You know our club stinks fom top to bottom and hope these hangers on are the first to go under Green.

Disgusted

Remember, there was 2 Andy Gorams

Why shouldn't we have a new pitch for our glory rangers to play after all its the player's that's deserve to play comftable!!

Well said... The "True Voice" of the REAL supporters! Time for the RST to put up and shut up!

Aww behave yourself. Try taking your hoops top off before you post on the rangers board next time.

Spot on mate

You are absolutely spot on. Dozens of small creditors could have been repaid with the money in the RFFF, instead we lay a new pitch.

Why should we expect any favours from the various bodies sitting in judgement of us when we treat ourselves to a new pitch.

Just for the record I do not believe the original poster was a hoops fan I believe he was just a decent person who wondered why he contributed to the RFFF.

Fighting funds don't pay for pitches they pay for lawyers! - Jaxie

Once again the supporters are not consulted except to put their hands in their pockets. Never mind what we spend it on! Well spoken about the priorities.

I tweeted the exact same thing to the RST last night. Absolutley criminal. Get the small businesses paid. There might not be a team to put on that pitch next year. A disgrace. What have the RST done for Rangers except antagonise others and turn them against us even more. All for 5 mins in front of the cameras.

At last the penny seems to be dropping, I hope all Rangers fans now get a grip on the reality, there are NO innocents at Ibrox, even club legend John Grieg had an EBT ! Guys like Jardine are merely making you all look like fools. Before it's too late wake up Rangers fans, get out and make your own voices heard, not through Dingwall and his like.

To the original poster you say
"What this fiasco has taught us is not one of them is worthy and they should all be shipped out" how many of you are in your room when you are posting this as you sure as hell are not speaking for me the money was put in to help the running costs of rangers football club and a pitch to play on and train on is part of the running costs of a football club i paid money into this fund and im happy for it to be used in any way they see fit to help run the club ; cooperboy

It`s all about priorities. The RFF money should be used to get a good lawyer ( hope there is no contradiction here ) and make legal moves to get shot of Duff and Duffer asap. They are up to their eyeballs in the brown stuff. I feel a public enquiry comming on soon ! And bye the bye - I don`t care if the EBT`s were " a matter of public record " IT WAS A TAX SCAM _ PURE AND SIMPLE !

Agree with the OP 100%... total hoods making the decisions at Glasgow Rangers FC ...for far too many years.
A wholesale clear out needed of these leeches! get rid of the fkn lot of them.

If it was a TAX SCAm as you put it.....why have we not been found guilty yet? why has HMRC not chased the other 50000 companies that used them for money?? Well im waiting for your educated answer!

You can't consult the supporters prior to every decision regarding the RFFF, don't be ridiculous, that is the trustees job.

The money was to be spent on whatever was necessary to run the club in the absence of a board.

Everyone knew that at the beginning.

So they had to repair the pitch with your money?..So what have they done with the old turf?..Why dont they sell it to the fans or better still give them a piece for free..greenjellybaby

Because the ebts were not set up properly, and topped up the income of players, staff etc thats why

But you have been found guilty. The tribunal is about how much you owe not wether you owe it.

I agree. and whislt on the subject of plastering things on the rangers website. does anyone else agree that it is probably one of the worst websites i have ever accessed. it takes forever to load, the text is terrible and it generally a shambles.

Away with your nonsense.

WE ARE IN ADMINISTRATION. Who else is going to pay for the pitch?

To the post above yes i agree it must be one of the worst football site i dont go near it it takes ages to load there is very little on it the text is sometimes on a dark background and you cant read it very poor ; cooperboy

The reason they have spent the money on the pitch is for liquidation. One less thing to spend money on when we get liquidated for Green.

It is a good thing if rangers are still here next season do u want them playing on a cracking pitch or a patchy filthy looking thing.Secondly it is also a wee hint that football will still be getting played at ibrox next season.

IMHO, not re-laying the pitch would be like Ferrari not servicing their F1 cars....

It would be unprofessional to not get pitch ready for new season. Think positive please . There will be a rangers playing on that pitch next season. So it has to be ready. Come on. Think positive.

Best weather for ages ,surely any decent groundsman can get the pitch into decent order without this constant returfing ,it's the easy lazy option ,better off working hard and if needed upgrade equipment to maintain pitch

So who pays for new machinery to sort pitch? I think your missing ops point. It is not that we are getting a new pitch its where money comes from.