Rangers Rumours Archive April 21 2012

21 Apr 2012 19:11:02
Heard from Edinburgh Lawyer that this week coming is BTC result week.
Rumour that there's findings for Rangers and for HMRC. Rumour that HMRC likely to appeal findings for Rangers. This will kick in immediate payments Rangwrs cannot afford.

I heard the same thing from the guy that drives the ice crean van in drumchapel, apparently his cousin overheard the prison officers talking about it when he was visiting his son in the jail.......

If this is true it is good news for Rangers, it provides HMRC a reason to agree to a CVA. There is no point in HMRC appealing or demanding money from a liquidated compny, from which they get absolutely nowt.

Payments for what? Murray is paying the Lawyers, So if they appeal then it just means that murray pays, or atleast i believe that is the case unless it has chnaged, Ed can u tell me if im right or wrong. {Ed001's Note - as far as I am aware the club is not paying for the court case.}

Imagine if the outcome is some good and some bad for both parties, appealling and demanding money from a soon to be liquidated company seems rather illogical, it may give HMRC sufficient cause to agree to a CVA and get 10 million instead of liquidation and nothing.

I smell a compromise in the offing.

NW.

No re-payments would start if rangers won and an appeal was lodged by hmrc.

there would be no repayments to make as rangers would have won - it just that hmrc would be appealing

Surely if hmrc appeal, then that would mean rangers had won and wouldnt need to pay until after an appeal. However, only time will tell. Sick of speculation and "leaked" information usually from the eastensers claiming to know the outcome

It might not be next week but one of the weeks thereafter and that's actually how it will pan out. Almost certainly.

Doubt if your source has inside track but decision could be more complex than straight win/loss. David Murray as I understand retained sole responsibility for the club's tax affairs for the years prior to the change in ownership. He may not have the best interests of Rangers central to his arguments. Should the decision of the Court be that the Employee Benefit Trust was a complete sham and should be disregarded BUT the loans are loans and not remuneration this would result in the loans being reclassified as being directly from Rangers to the employee. This would be very bad for David Murray as the monies paid by Rangers into the "Trust" would no longer be an allowable deduction for Corporation Tax. Other compaies in the Murray Group will most likely have claimed tax relief for these losses ie Group Relief. This could leave the Murray Group with a tax liability of many £m. Rangers on the other hand could have very little tax exposure and the potential to seek full repayment of the loans. It is perhaps unlikely that Andrew Thonhill QC would advance this argument as it may not be in his client's interest (David Murray). HMRC is unlikely to find such a decision acceptable. I write this more in hope than expectation as the last twice we have played Rangers was an easy 6 points. Hope to see you all at Rugby Park next season

David Murray is paying for the BTC ,
I think his other business interests may have some issues with Ebts

Your Lawyer friend is in serious trouble as he must have had a private conversation with one of the three presiding high court judges to glean any information regarding the case. This would be a serious contempt of court and both he and the aforementioned judge would face criminal charges. I hope that you will come back on here and admit you were lying and apologise to everyone.

The BTC debt dies with a liquidated Rangers, they can not appeal againstor demand money from a company that no longer exists.
If the outcome is not conclusive then it enables HMRC to compromise by agreeing to a CVA, or explain to the tax payer why they threw away 10 million.

SDM is not personaly liable for any of the debt.

NW.

The actual btc amount is irrelevant, it all goes into the cva, if it is zero, it just means the creditors get a higher return.

rangers were insolvent without the btc debt.

Contributions are collected by the employer, what this has to do with SDMs other companies is beyond me.

Like how facts are twisted.If the outcome is nort conclusive it enables HMRC to compromise by agreeing to a CVA.Rubbish,HMRC can agree to a CVA anytime they want,they don't need an excuse.Also,they don't need to explain why they threw away £10m.They'll argue that agreeing to CVAs would allow everyone to renege on their tax bill.HMRC will demand immediate payment of any amount awarded by FTT,and if RFC appeal to the UPPER HOUSE(they can only do this on points of law,not the amount awarded)then HMRC can still insist on payment up front.If RFC win this appeal then money will be returned with interest.
Also,although unlikely,if HMRC decide that a tax evasion scheme was in place,THEY CAN take action against officers of the company,including SDM,to recover any monies due.

This person is talking cod wallop the findings on the big tax case will go towards hmrc as they have used hugh adams as a witness that rangers were breaking the rules on tax avasion and ther will be no mercy shown by hmrc. they will bankrupt rangers and sell off all their assets to get as much capital back as possible. this could be the end of rangers fc,

If HMRC appeal then I understand small tax case, PAYE and VAT become immediately payable =£10million.
Also the points found for HMRC immediately payable......anything up to £75million.

How can the person who said hugh adams was used as a witness have any credence as these were private hearings ie no admittance to the public. obviously the excitement of being so close to a computer has got the better of him and he has confused a newspaper report of a rumour with a tax hearing. that stated is it any surprise that he cant spell evasion

The tax case result is long long overdue.
Surely expected in Feb/Mar now into Apr cannot delay into May?
Surprisingly long overdue.

HMRC do not ACCEPT CVAs they took court action twice to block Portsmouths attempts at a CVA.

Rangers is a Limited company, this means its debts are limited to the company and not to the shareholders personally, SDM is NOT liable for any of the BTC debt.

HMRC do deals all the time on non-payment of contributions and obviously do not argue it allows everyone to renege on their tax bills. CVAs are nothing new and tax arrears are nothing new. They will have to explain why they threw away 10 million of tax payers money because the administrator will reveal this in their report.
If HMRC do not agree to include all debts in CVA then there is no point in asking for any payments, the club will be liquidated and they will get zero.
Why do the administrators and bidders thnk a CVA is possible if its not ?

NW.

On the one hand you state you get nothing for a liquidated company and on the other hand you d&p put assets at 109 million. Of course creditors get money from a liquidated company.

Assets are valued at 109 million, but are worth only what people will pay for them, as has been said before HMRC are not first in line for payment dues, so will have to pick over the bones after vulture Whyte and co have finished

If no CVA is granted, Rangers will be liquidated to pay outstanding debts, to pay these debt the assets would be sold, Ibrox is an asset and will be sold, so in theory Rangers might not have a stadium to play in next season, if Tesco buy the stadium, has anyone thought of that??

And how is Hugh Adams a man that admitted to the onset of dementia and stated Rangers used EBT`s in the 90`s before they were invented in 2001 in anyway a credible witness ??

HMRC would not receive a penny all money would be grabbed by SECURED CREDITORS owner, debenture scheme and staff contracts have to be paid in full before any preferred creditor gets a penny canny see them getting much more than £40 mill for Ibrox £30mill owner £8mill debenture and staff still to be paid doent leave a lot for HMRC to share equally with ticketus

Tesco are more than welcome to put there money into the stadium. They wouldn't develop (they would rent it to the club). It would be good business . After all EVERY LITTLE HELPS...

I discovered yesterday that HMRC have never done a deal for CVA after a FTT with any company. If they do it with Rangers it will be a first.

Contributions are collected by the employer, what this has to do with SDMs other companies is beyond me.????


Because Murray holdings most likely going get pumped next ! Not just RFC that's been using EBTs ! This is a test case and if they lose !

There will be no cva from hmrc if/when they win, that is fact.
They can/do/will negotiate interest and penalties and agree to stage payments from a viable business but they can not and will not negotiate on unpaid tax, national insurance and vat and anyone who claims they will is a liar or an idiot.
Look up their rules and regulations, they are available for anyone who wants to see them, they do not have the power to dismiss, reduce or write off tax liabillities only interest and penalties.
jimd

Tell me how many companies involving EBT's have HMRC refused a CVA of 10 million, put it into liquidation and received nothing ?

I think you may find it is less than 1.

They will do a deal.

Sigh...guys,will you have a word with yourselves. Yes HMRC do deals on tax cases, it's a everyday event, completely common business practice. What they dont do deals with is in cases where the non payment of tax has been deemed to avoid paying illegally...only in cases of genuine error.
I have left no name here as I am employed by HMRC and what I can say for definate is that if the appeals findings are unclear then a deal will be done. If it is in HMRC favour then absolutely no deal can or will be done.
Our only hope is the decision is for us or at best inconclusive. You can read or write as many posts as you like but this is how it is.

Hmrc have never done a cva with a football club ffs a simple google will tell everyone that... fact its not happenin

HMRC have never done a CVA after a FTT!
It's all over twitter.

Rangers has taken this tax case to a FTT. David Murray did that rather than offer a realistic settlement. This is his strategy rolling out with his solicitors at court. HMRC did not want to go to court or defend a FTT. HMRC do not do deals after an FTT. NEVER.
David Murray did this to buy time to move the company to Whyte. Knowing FTT hopeless.

“As Telegraph Sport revealed previously – highly placed sources within HMRC have indicated that the tax authority will not oppose a Company Voluntary Agreement for Rangers provided that there is an ‘equitable’ settlement’ for creditors and that there is ‘regime change’ at Ibrox – namely, that Whyte is removed from the picture.
----------------------------------------

So much for never doing deals involving EBTs, there are 10 million reasons why they will agree to a CVA.

I know someone currently who had a limited company that went into admin. The tax man is chasing him for a lot of money. He says if it wasnt limited (the company) the tax man couldnt chase him. Im in England so are the rules different? His shares were also suspended (made void) immediately when he went into admin. CheltBlue.

21 Apr 2012 18:14:55
Herd from someone close to rangers that Duff and Felps have run up a bill of over 2.5m and the court are close to pulling The administrators out and replacing them with their own. The Singapore based consortium are pulling out because of the administration is taking too long. SW

Nonsense, will fans please stop going on about the administrators and their fees, there are real issues to worry about.

There's barely cash left to pay the April salaries. Meanwhile heard Celtic want their 40 k and will not give Gers tickets for next old firm game selling direct to fans.

That's right. The administrators are doing the job for free!! Get a grip. £500 per hour. Even on a conservative 40 hr week that's £40,000 per week x 14 weeks = £560,000. I know that's not near £2.5 million but as I say only based on 40 hr week. I bet they're doing 16 hr days 6-7 days per week. So that could almost treble. Then there is Legal costs,court fees etc. Adds up quickly. Only possible outcome now is LIQUIDATION. Oh and D & P being about £3- £5 million better off. Never forget they were Whyte's choice. Ask yourself WHY?!?!?

Billing up around 2.5 million I think this is serious when we're in this deleget situation SW

Not much choice is there. And Celtic are wanting their £40k and won't give tickets to Rangers for Old Firm game. They are selling direct to fans. Given Rangers history of not paying clubs monies owed,can't say I blame them. As SDM said to Airdie over Ironically £40k owed when he liquidated them"It's only Business"

D&P's charge the same as any other administrator, and they represent the interests of the creditors regardless who nominates them.

Rangers are not in liquidation because of their efforts, some thanks are in order.

Some thanks?!?!? Every deadline they've set has passed without any movement. They claimed new owners would be in place by end of March. No Preferred bidder yet. Most likely one has made demands that cannot be given. AND they are most likely bidder. Surely you can see this is a shambles. So yeah D & P THANKS!!FFS

Why do people keep going on about the time the administrators r taking if none of the bids are acceptible what else can they do but try and engage with bidders to raise there bids instead of going on about administrators try looking at the bidders if bids are not acceptable there is nothing they can do they dont work for nothing

Correct. All the bids are useless.
But they will give it to Miller. They need his 500k and they will advise him that his plan is feasible, when they know it's not.

Rumour that BDO Glasgow are replacing D&P but not as Administrators...as Liquidators.
This is doing the rounds on twitter accounts.

D&P may well have run up charges of circa £2.5m.I'm told they have a team of 8 working on administration.They all won't be on top rate but add in hotels,flights,expenses etc it'll soon add up to a tidy sum.

D&P never said a new owner would be in place by the end of March, in fact their business plan was to the end of the season, to incorporate the BTC outcome into the CVA. They have not received one unconditional bid and the delays are being caused by bidders negotiations with Ticketus not D&Ps.

So as I said they are doing their job and keeping Rngers alive while this complex process takes place. Having a preferred bidder is just the beginning, nothing happens until a CVA is put to all creditors, and for this to happen they need the BTC debt figure.

We will see the bean counters and craig whyte sitting on a beach in some far away country sipping cocktails when all this is over

21 Apr 2012 16:11:41
Can we really class any of them as serious bidders or are Duck&Phlaps delaying purposely to line they're own pockets?

KerrBear

Spot on mate!

21 Apr 2012 13:34:48
how much of the 12 million quid thats been pledged actually exists?why is there only half a million in the fighting fund?its strange the fighting fund is so low when you consider an Australian dude pledged 1 million quid,why not put his million into the rfff?

Cause he sobered up

Brilliant reply

He pladged a million to buying the team not the fighting fund. Plus a lot of us are suspect that D&P will be draining that fund on court costs and their wage bill. Too many loose ends.

These pledges were only a guide for addministraters and potential buyers
to gain some idea of funds that may be possible through fans contributions in whatever form,they have not taken any
money from pledges as yet,RFF a different issue.

How much fighting got funded?

We dont know where the money will go ??

You never have

In the fund You have £2.75 an empty ginger bottle and an old button in average condition!
Don't understand why all
the doom and gloom

Cheerybyenoo !

Newburgh"

I'd rather have an empty ginger bottle in the bank, and a manager on the pitch, than the empty ginger bottle yous have as manager, Newburgh. Muzz

Aye Muzz but at least we will still have a stand for him to sit in next week!
And wee fat Sally will be sittin on Question of sport boaring the sh*t oot us again!!

Newburgh"

21 Apr 2012 08:23:11
ed i just heard th BK are back in the picture, have u heard anything m8? ntbear {Ed001's Note - I believe they are mate, they are trying to join forces with Kennedy, I think it is. It is a very strange situation.}

Here we go again in out in out shake it all about .wake up they are all walking away just like the fans !

Do not be suprised if BM putting the numbers out there is a con job, now the in out in out back in Knights will bid 11.3 and BM sitting there with another bid of 11,4 Just in case the knights find a wallet somewhere.

Why don't the blue knights set up a website for rangers fans to pledge their money. its bound to raise millions. we are in a desperate situation and our club needs our help more than ever before.

It wont matter, cause when miller gets the go ahead, duph and phelps will coin it in for another 4 months at least. its already been decided.....

Windy Miller, from the Windy city really does spout a lot of wind.
If the SPL or SFA change a single rule due to this Rangers shame Scottish football will be the worlds biggest joke from Argentina to Canada, from Australia to the Middle East and from Portugal to Russia.
Now is the correct time to do the clean correct thing and ENFORCE the rules.

Kennedy doesn't do partnerships.
Kennedy isn't buying Rangers anyway.
TBK don't have any money and Kennedy doesn't put much forward either.
Miller is full of wind and his preposterous demands can never be met.
D&P cannot accept bids which will not secure Rangers for the long haul. D&P would be never used again as administrators.

Its a sad day when only one bid was based in Scotland (Blue Knights) like the Knights Kennedy keeps popping up his head with false hope. At the start of this sorry mess my preferred choice was the Blue Knights, now i'm not sure about them or anyone else, what happened to all the so called multi millionaires who were throwing cash into Rangers during 9 in a row, more to the point, where did that money go? one things for sure, if the BK's are successful they can't expect the fans to continue to foot the bill, as much as i want Rangers to survive, I will NOT be contributing any-more of my hard earned £300pw wage to fund a players £20,000+ monthly wage, I love my club, but I love my family more, more to the point, charity begins at home..

The blue knights are just some of the old blazer spivs enough said

Its like a panto
time for the krankies to make an appearance

20 Apr 2012 23:44:07
Ppl are getting to worked up about the "incubator company" the bill miller is proposing surely this only means the if he successfully buys the club "rangers football club" will just pass from being in the ownership of wavetower or whoever that crook CW transfered the club to bit the club as a single entity and the history will always survive just as ot did when Murray international holdings owned the club mabey I'm just daft bit it don't fully understand.

Big T

Big T I think in your words "surely" !!!!
Says it all

Total confusion


Newburgh""
Advise please DONALD QC

Millers idea is nonsense and preposterous!
Make a Newco, brand new corporate entity, and let's put history in there. Complete and utter nonsense joke.
Also transfer Assets over there out of the reach of Creditors is illegal. HMRC will stop that with Ticketus.
Finally blackmailing SFA and SPL... Show this yank the door.... Cheerio cowboy!
Strathclyde Business School professor says he's wrong.

How can SPL and SFA give away all their powers by Monday? Crazy!

How can a Newco hold history?
Ridiculous!

Lol
Move the 1899 history into a brand new company. Lol.
Then try CVA or liquidate 1899 company lol and history is saved? Lol ha ha ha funny.
UEFA, SFA and SPL don't allow this.
Look it's a clean liquidation under normal insolvency regulations. D&P cannot break all that legislation mentioned in their financial report.
This yanks demands are a dreamland wish list. Show him the door.

Having read Bill Millers Statement "My offer is contingent upon them (SFA/SPL) agreeing the club will begin in the spl next season without loss of points & with all historic titles intact, I will not acquire the club unless I receive written assurances from regulatory bodies to this effect" He is off his head! if he thinks he can blackmail Scottish football fans never mind the so called powers that be! this is like me getting caught drink driving, no licence, no road tax etc etc, & tell the Judge I will admit it but only if i get it in writting first that I will pay a maximum £10 fine with no bans imposed otherwise I don't want to play anymore & will drive everyday smashed out of my skull, I would be rightly laughed out of court & branded a clown, but these 2 ludicrous scenarios aren't that far apart are they?

Millars deal cannot be accepted.Conditional on SFA/SPL dropping any sanctios and RFC allowed straight back into SPL with no further penalties.How can SFA/SPL agree to that,and HMRC will not agree to drop tax claim.
Furthermore his plan of moving assets to an "Incubator Club" seems to involve taking assets out of reach of creditors.This is almost certainly illegal.

MIH & Wavetower are holding companies, whereas The Rangers Football Club plc is the trading company. Think about it like a new family (the holding co) adopting a child (the trading co).

The problem in this case is that the child is seriously ill. It's stretching the analogy a bit, but here the new family have suggested they should look after the vital organs, which they would put back into the patient at a later date - if they survive!

SFA will buy murray park - as scottish sports center for £15million.

but laywers from every where will fight over this whyte, hrmc, etc etc etc

It's just a cowards way of saying he's out of the bidding he knows their is no chance of that being agreed ! But still you will dream on that a billionaire is coming over the horizon lol your cheating club are going under !!

What miller is suggesting is possible. Remember Setanta Sports. Their still on the go elswhere in the world including their home country. The still have their name and history and continue to trade, but left a lot od debt behind.

At best what Miller seems to be suggesting is that he transfers the titles but not the debts to a newco holding them there till such a time that all debts have been avoided then bringing them back.

Basically he wants to hide stuff in a hole in the ground until the Vikings have stopped pillaging. The problem with this idea is that HMRC are not Vikings but an organisation with a legal claim on Rangers' assests. Putting these assests out of reach is at best immoral and at worst illegal.

Lets not forget if we piss off HMRC sufficiently they will apply for a winding up order and given our current situation they will get it, If this happens then our history will be just that - History.

No that's a fair comparison. What this tells me is that he has no intention of buying the club as he knows these demands are ridiculous. It would be like a RIRA delegation going to number 10 and saying end british rule in Ireland by next week and we won't bomb any more tourists offices:)

Incubator, Liquidator, Respirator, Vibrator. It's just all getting a bit mad now...Catweazle-talkingbone.

Ha ha Hmrc has claim on Rangers ASSETS secured creditors will get the lot you think they will get more than £50 mill for Ibrox and murray park in a fire sale DREAM ON

Miller's no intention of buying Rangers, getting free media exposure in USA.

Miller's idea is great, I wonder what Planet this clown came from..

HMRC has no claim on Rangrs assets, but CW does and so do the stsff in the event of liquidation. HMRC are only an ordinary creditor, they will take the offer of a CV. The alternative is to explain to the taxpayers and their elective representatives why they threw away 10 million and got nothing.

TO previous poster re Setanta. It was Setanta Sports UK that went bust and left the debt, other companies in Setanta Group were unaffected and have carried on trading. All legal but obviously morally questionable that the same people can leave debt behind.

Incubater club, lol

lets call it what it is a new company, trophy count zer0.

silver stars zero