Rangers Rumours Archive June 12 2012

 

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12 Jun 2012 14:59:48
On 27th May Charles Green stated that a deal was done with HMRC, and a CVA will be approved. Why do I smell the same BS that CW used to spout.... This guy is only interested in picking up Ibrox and Murray Park on the cheap and selling them on to anybody to make a quick buck.. 140 years of Rangers means nothing.

Believable19 Unbelievable18

So how many of his consortium will stay now CVA trashed. {Ed039's Note - He already said some of his investors were dependant on CVA being agreed)

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Maybe he will be another Whyte.......but there is no-one else at the table. If you think BK's would have been any better dream on, Murray was part of all the previous failures!

ITS ALL A SAD JOKE

GDog
WATP

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He also said that either way when the CVA decision was announced he would name his consortium.

I won't hold my breath though.

And while I'm at it, how did his meeting with Peter Lawwell go? BB

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Charles green is someone the rangers fans MUST be very wary of. our club is going down the drain!

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When will everyone start taking off the blue tinted specs, there has only ever been one agenda and that was to liquidate the club, no one with a business brain will take on a club with the debts Rangers have, a CVA was never going to be agreed at the price they offered and they knew it that's the only reason it was offered, if they were at all serious about the history of Rangers then they would have made the offer in the CVA more appealing to the creditors.
There have been people interested in the club and it's history (Brian Kennedy) but Dumb n Dumber (instructed by Craig Whyte and you know they were before people start moaning about it) knocked back his offer, he is the only person to actually say Rangers isn't his interest more his wife and families but as a matter of principal he wouldn't see the club die (he's a fit n proper person) but oh no the FU**KW**S at D&P said no lets go for someone who Craig Whyte obviously knows and we can march on to our first and only plan and liquidate.
We are now heading into a Newco and the people in charge of the club at the moment will make even more money, I know this is hard but the only thing these people understand is money so we shouldn't put our money into watching or supporting a Newco and see how they like that.
And yes i'm a Rangers fan nothing else

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When there is a large pot of money to be made then the people might well stretch the truth.

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We will lose our history and our name. What really angers me is that it has nothing to do with our fans. Murray,Whyte and Green will go down as curse words for decades. RP

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Can't help but think we as fans could have come up with a bailout package. surely there would be enough worried fans who would put their money in. our club is all but finished and that's so sad. yes the supporters are not at fault but i have no doubts we could have raised upwards of 10-15m which could have saved this sinking ship.

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Well lads hate to say this, Celtic fans have told use for a while the end is coming, use didn't listen and were deluded enough to think that your opinion were the facts, so it is to late to start now with the "we could have done more" use neve help the situation with scaring the yank away, so take the rough with the smooth and don't start finger pointing without having a finger pointed at yourselfs!

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Whyte only brought to the surface what was going on at Rangers, the main culprits here are David Murray and whoever was on the board during his years in charge. The silence from guys like Walter Smith is deafening, he knew what was happening to, many have been leading Rangers supporters up the garden path to hide their own involvement in this sorry mess, if Rangers are to rise again under a newco, i hope the fans have a say in how the new club is run, one things for sure, all those involved should never show their faces at Ibrox again, no matter who they are.

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Why couldn't HMRC have made that decision 3 months ago??

£5m to D & P could have been significantly less.

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The history books will show the last two owners of Rangers were Green and Whyte and the last signing was Celik.......if carlberg did histories {Ed039's Note - I think you will find that Charles Green was never the owner of Rangers)

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Sorry fellow bears but i for one will not be sporting a newco. its time to close this chapter and start supporting our local team instead of glory hunting a team 100 miles from our home!
...................R.I.P 1899-2012....................... {Ed039's Note - 1872??)

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Remember when you point your finger four point back at you. You were well warned now get over it, admit your wrongs, get the newco up an running, get into the SFL 3rd division and start again. That way you can begin the long hard road back. Good luck.

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Could make a good episode of "Horrible Histories"

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HMRC have on there website they don't accept CVA's so ur argument about telling rangers fans 3 month ago is still deluded! It was always there in black and white and Rangers fans and the media all decided if they ignored it, it would go away! Good luck with what ever happens now.

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"This guy is only interested in picking up Ibrox and Murray Park on the cheap and selling them on to anybody to make a quick buck.. 140 years of Rangers means nothing."

Are you a fool? Seriously. The above quote- that's called business, who in their right mind wouldn't want to buy something cheap and then sell it at a profit and make some money. How about stopping lampooning the only people who actually made a concrete bid to try and save the club and are still committed to taking it forward under the newco and save the jibes for the likes of Murray and Whyte who put us in this sorry mess.

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Justice will be done at last. Rangers have done honest tax payers out of millions for years {Ed039's Note - How have the tax payers been done out of millions? Its HMRC that have been done out of millions)

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Heres a question the newco wont happen over night theirs licences to get spl vote and legal hearings about ownership of players it could take a while so ... who is gonna pay the players wages while all this gets sorted out ?? green who might not even get to transfer them ?? hmrc s liquidators take over on thursday they wont pay them every rangers player could be released before the weekend

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He was pulling your Pi55er, the guy is a conman.

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They have increased the burden on others whilst looking after themselves! That's why we have been done out of millions! {Ed039's Note - So you think if Rangers had paid their tax then you and I would be better off, I think not)

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{Ed039's Note - How have the tax payers been done out of millions? Its HMRC that have been done out of millions) ed hmrc collect tax for the government which go back to the running of this country hospitals schools ect so everyone in scotland has been done out of millions - (Ed 039's Note - The point I am trying to make is that IMO we would not be paying less tax than we are now, I have always said its a disgrace that the tax was not paid/avoided, but if Rangers had paid tax would we be paying less tax? I dont think so)

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WAW The Penny has dropped!!

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Ed- regardless if we would have paid less tax isn't a valid argument. We have been done out of valid resourses.

Even now still bitter to the end.

richybhoy {Ed039's Note - Where is the bitterness you speak of?, I have been and said again it was a disgrace that the taxes were not paid, you are trying to find an argument where there is not one, all I am trying to say is that the unpaid taxes by Rangers make the government black hole bigger, but consequently the ordinary tax payers pocket the OP referred to would be no better off but I acknowledge it could have and should have been able to be passed on by HMRC to be used)

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Ed it might not reduce the tax rate but we would have been 75 million closer to reducing it than we are now {Ed001's Note - just a few hundred billion left to find then.....}

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Ed Hope he( Mr Greene) is paying for his office space then or is he is doing appearances on Rangers TV to repay that??? cos if not he certainly thinks he owns them.

Hoopey67

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Mr Green won't be buying any assets, hmrc will liquidate rfc themselves.

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Are you a fool? Seriously. The above quote- that's called business, who in their right mind wouldn't want to buy something cheap and then sell it at a profit and make some money.

I think the point is he is only interested in selling the assets to make a profit...not to start a New team...he is even demanding/threatening players to transfer to newco,even though they can leave for free. He is worried he won't get cash from their transfers...5.5million...buy club...refused SFA licence...sell players...murray park as centre of excellence, even rent ibrox as concert venue until able to find buyer...nice handy profit...bye bye Mr Green...oh and obviously gives Mr Whyte his share...

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Celtic fan in peace!!!
I can't understand where all those money grabbers are coming from first Whyte,D&P, now this guy Green and i would even go as far to say Murry.
All parties have had a massive part to play in the down fall of your club and the mess of our league.
I for 1 think this has been Whytes intentions all the time nothing more than Greed that drives these sort of people and King should of been listened to earlier.

When blue knights consortium was kicked into touch did the alarm bells not start to ring!!

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Dont blame craig whyte for this ,Craig whyte was conned by murray into buying rangers and being their saviour , once craig found out the true extent of the debt and mis management he set on a course to keep rangers going for as long as possible , this has been unfortunately at the expense of small suppliers and service providers as well as HMRC. The rangers support have been misled by the media into blaming craig for all that is wrong at ibrox, whereas he should be getting recognition for his brave attempt to save the gers. The responsibility for the demise of rangers falls squarely at the hands of one man david murray. Dont blame craig whyte he is the biggest victim here.

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Who the hell does green think he is, who had even heard of him before he stuck his ugly head in.
He has done nothing but pi55 everyone off since he came to town like the big shot.
At best creditors you l get 9p for every £
hmrc I know everything,listen to me.
the guy is a spanner who always wanted liquidation cause realistically was the only way to go.

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I think you may find Mr Green will find some excuse within the next 48 hours to drop out altogether, no newco, just like Miller.
Rangers fixed assets are only worth something to a commercially viable football club called Rangers. These fixed assets are worth nothing to a loss making fooball club called Rangers.
The potential return for any investment is in the clubs profitabiliy and not its fixed assets.
Bill Miller ran a country mile when his financial advisers estimated it would cost 30 million to bankroll the losses Rangers would occur in the first 3 years. They added up the cost of a 3 year Europe ban, possible further point deductions, loss of playing assets and the almost inevitable drop in attendance income.

Mr Green has committed 5.5 million plus the transfer of various secured creditors totalling 9.5 million, add this 15 million to the projected 30 million loss and you have a grand total of 45 million.

45 million to break even in 3 years and then the slow climb to profitability. Have a look how much Celtic's profit is, and it has a bigger turnover, it is washers without Europe.

The most optminstic projection is Rangers will earn 10 mllion every 4 years for CL group stages. Bearing in mind they will have an affordable but average team ( just like Celtic).


Rangers is SIMPLY not worth 45 million, it would take 20 years to get your investment back. Celtic and Rangers are marginally profitable businesses if they are run at their best.

If this deal goes through, Rangers( newco) will be in administration by August 2013. The season ticket sales will be horrendous and the losses will be too great for Mr Greens greedy little group.
I simply do not believe Rangers attendances will not drop sgnificantly in years 2 and 3. They will be unable to win the league and there is no European prize for winning the dogfight for 2nd, 3rd or 4th. Add to this the loss of fans who don't accept the newco and glory hunters.
Ticket sales are approx 25 mllion for 46,000 average, each 10% drop is 2.5 million loss. A 30,000 average crowd would lose 8.5 million, Bill Millers projection of a 30 milion loss in 3 years is feasible when you add in ground repairs.

Rangers are too big to downsize to a small turnover, this saga has a long way to run. I fear the worst.

Anorak

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Ed-please accept my apologies for my last comment. I should have put point instead of argument. You kind of took the brunt of my frustrations caused by others!

Anyway as a Celtic fan I hope when the dust settles and and what ever comes of it next year or 3 we get some sort of OF games again as it's what we all look forward to the most.

Richybhoy

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I can't believe someone is defending Craig Whyte. I'm sure most Rangers fans thought he was coming in with all his wealth behind him to bankroll the club a la Abramovich with his talk of war chests. Then we all find out that he probably only used £1 of his own money. He sold off the season ticket revenue to pay off the bank loan; tickets to games at a club he did not at the time own. Other monies disappeared and he only kept the club running by not paying any money out. I think some of these actions could be viewed as criminal. True, he was relying on European money to keep the club going, but if he is so wealthy why did he not want to pump some of his own money into the club when that income stream went to keep it running? Was he hoping for some miracle, a lottery win to improve the clubs finance, or was administration always in the plan?
Al

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Anorak I hope the people on here take note of your post, it's not exaggerated it's what it is. I had done a rough estimate of the numbers and it scared the sh@t out of me. I can't argue with any of your numbers and i can guarantee everyone that if not now eventually we the fans are going to have to fully back a share issue and own and financially back our club or we are proper f@cked. Extinct.

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I for 1 am totally and utterly disgusted by the shambolic downfall of our club and all i can say is i will nt support a newco as it will be a cheap imitation of a once great club.I blame everyone of they t***s who ruined our club and hope they get whats coming to them especially Green who just spouted bile from day 1 about his 30 million and offered creditors a penny in the pound its just spin doctorin and i would love to know wat us great fans done to deserve all the lies from the club and i mean everyone especially big John judas Greig and Sandy Jardine who should of stayed in the cupboard.i hope u are all happy now u money grabbing rogues and Greig is definately not the greatest ever ranger

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Rangers history DOES NOT END. Its only Rangers PLC that will , the club and history remain intact.

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I said from the moment the CVA was proposed that it had been structured to GUARENTEE failure.
Green is only interested in a newco despite his rants over the last few hours.

Of course which Green do you believe -
The Green that said Kings outburst about season tickets would lead to a newco and the loss of history....
OR
The Green now that a newco is about to become a reality that told Clark the history is safe.

The guy is a Dell boy of the worst kind.

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There is a definite break in tradition of the Old Team to the New, and the old teams history cannot be used by the new.

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History DOES end! dont be stupid the club and everything dies with it, if you start a new company you start a new history

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But rangers could make a profit without europe, there ya go? somethin round 10mill a season right? well if we had our own caterin back together with our own shirt deals again well basically everythin rangers owned themselves and not a third party then am sure we can make a better profit, may be little but it can go a long way, what you think ed? steeeveRFC {Ed001's Note - lower player wages too, yes, theoretically it would be possible, if Rangers weren't about to be liquidated. No one can be sure that a newco, which is a separate identity, would be able to keep the same following.}

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If the club is liquidated. It's ceases to exist and everything attached to the extinct company go also. A new company starts then face the music mate, new company. New history. If you believe the history should be intact still then why shouldn't the debt be intact still? Can take one thing to the newco and not another. Sorry to burst your bubble mate. Records will show on any new rangers company 0 honours. We just need to start again and take our punishment

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History stops under rangers plc. new history starts when new rangers starts with another reg number.

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The more Green says, the more it becomes apparent that he is a spive, & not a very intelligent or articulate one.

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History stops with liquidation. Starts again with Newco.

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Im sick to death of people comming on here stating they will not support a Newco rangers. These sort of people are the glory hunters tbh. Unless you are 140 years old then you came to enjoy Rangers glory later in there history. So now some of you will go and support smaller teams WHY?> Surely these smaller teams are just going to be the equvielnt of a newco Rangers possibly in the same league. Rangers in any shape or form do not need glory hunters those are the type of supporters who got rangers into this s**t by demanding Euro placements and titles every year.

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Anorak finally some one gets it

Rangers are finished.

Players can only transfer to a SFA regesiterd club. So anly new co application will have NO players.

There is a huge hole in the accouts Ibrox and Murry PArk are not ASSETS there are LIABILITIES.

The Catering and Shirt deals are now void. This might sound like good news but who is going to agree to produce replica shirts when they've just been stung for all the latest Ranger shirts. Where does the money come from to set up a Rangers Shop network. The best you can hope for is that the same deal will be carried forwards. Same with the catering where is the money to set up a catering division.

Fans need to forget about Green, Ibrox etc and take a leaf out of FC Wimbeldon's book.

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The confused mind of Charles Green Part 133.

Days ago he says in the Sun, while slagging off Dave King, that if the CVA is rejected - all the history and tradition that we’ve been desperately trying to preserve would be just swept down the drain.

But hey-ho, last night, he tells us that the history of Rangers remains intact.

Amazing that this man has the audacity to claim HMRC seem to make things up as they go along because that's exactly what he does, each and every day and he wants our money for season tickets!

Why should we trust a single word he says?

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As far as i am aware Rangers History old company is in tact New Company starts afresh with no history , wishful thinking
does not change facts..

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Anorak can't argue with your post, but why bring celtic into it ,they had nothing to do with rangers downfall,that was rangers people. You might be depending on celtics vote if you have a newco.
Tambhoy

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At last some form of awakening to the dire reality amongst Rangers fans, it's long overdue. Now insist on SFL3 for the newco and work your way back up, it's the only way to start afresh, and being able to hold your heads up. The alternative route you will never ever live down. Also why no anger towards the print media ? these so called "journalists" who printed all the rubbish about Murray over the years and the "wealth off the radar" Whyte, they played to your base sentiments and now have to a man gone into "told you so" mode. Another bunch of shysters in your clubs story.

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Its a Newco, a new club under SFA and SPL and UEFA guidelines, therefore your History does END, its just paper talk to keep the fans on board, NEWCO means NO HISTORY, WON NOTHING YET, ZERO, ZILCH,

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But rangers could make a profit without europe, there ya go? somethin round 10mill a season right? well if we had our own caterin back together with our own shirt deals again well basically everythin rangers owned themselves and not a third party then am sure we can make a better profit, may be little but it can go a long way, what you think ed? steeeveRFC
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Hello Steve,

How can Rangers make 10 million without Europe, getting rid of 10 million off the wage bill will make Rangers break even, IF the average attandance stays at 46,000. I suggest no Europe for 3 years will put a big dent in this figure.

I believe merchandising is not affected by the newco, same name suggests intellectual property rights.

Celtic run a tight ship with a bigger turnover and they cannot make 10 million without Europe, why can Rangers ?

Please don't say because " We are the people ".
.

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Rangers history does end - UEFA want 3 years of history before any club can compete in Europe. New history starts with Newco - the Newco won't have won titles etc.

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Rangers history DOES NOT END. Its only Rangers PLC that will , the club and history remain intact.

What planet are you on, it is and has been made crystal clear that the history is finished, The tax man will not allow for any transfer as they want to pursue everyone and anyone connected to OLD Rangers for money. If any attempt is made to transfer to NEWCO, anything other than saleable assets from OLD Ranger, this leaves new owners potetually liable. That’s why CVA was rejected, OLD Rangers will never be clean so can’t be transferred, Liquidation means END of everything, this is a new club, with no history brand spanking new, there is no guarantee of professional football at this point, although IMO they will be allowed to have a licence with sanctions, but there is no guarantees. The Tax man has ended any fantasy of transferring history with their stance.

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All this talk of a new co being the Rangers is nonsense, it's just some greedy businessman trying to get the support on board. We lost the right to everything when we were liquidated owning people £100Million quid. We should be hanging our head in shame. I for one wont be supporting the new co. It's queens park for me all the way now.

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Anorak can't argue with your post, but why bring celtic into it ,they had nothing to do with rangers downfall,that was rangers people. You might be depending on celtics vote if you have a newco.
Tambho---------------------------

Hello Tam,

I was using Celtic as a good example of financial governance and its footballing consequences. It was not meant as an insult, and I am an East Fife fan.

Celtic has an affordable team that has average results in Europe, this is the best Rangers can hope for in 3 years time.

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Selik changed their Holding Company name twice in 1994. Did their Club History end in 1994? How many titles have they won then? If changing the Holding Companies' name means an end of the Football Clubs history, then surely we wont hear any more s%&te about 1967, will we? {Ed039's Note - Celtic were not liquidated)

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Rangers history may change once spl find on duel contracts i.e. strip titles

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12 Jun 2012 14:17:06
HMRC said Rangers assets could now be sold, allowing it "a fresh start".
In a statement, HMRC said: "A liquidation provides the best opportunity to protect taxpayers, by allowing the potential investigation and pursuit of possible claims against those responsible for the company's financial affairs in recent years.
Assets sale
"A CVA would restrict the scope of such action. Moreover the liquidation route does not prejudice the proposed sale of the club. This sale can take place either through a CVA or a liquidation."
HMRC said the sale of the clubs assets was "not being undermined" but simply taking "a different route".
The statement concluded: "Liquidation will enable a sale of the football assets to be made to a new company, thereby ensuring that football will continue at Ibrox.
"It also means that the new company will be free from claims or litigation in a way which would not be achievable with a CVA. Rangers can make a fresh start."

So how does liquidation get more cash to the businesses if it appears the 'football assets' are going to a new owner/company to start afresh?
Is it gloves off against Murray and Whyte and they, plus some others, are the ones who HMRC are going to get their money from? while the businesses take thier chance?

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"Liquidation will enable a sale of the football assets to be made to a new company"

Doesn't say Green's new company. I think you'l find Green will have some backtracking to do on transparency and funding to convince HMRC he is viable as a purchaser or RFC is up for sale again!

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Why is everyone so loyal to all the so called rangers greats who have taken money out the club. gazza amo they all laughed on there way to the bank while bleeding the club dry

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Everything hinges on the true valuation of ibrox.break up value v sale as a stadium.

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In a word yes.

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A newco club needs absolutely nothing except the good will of the supporters. The fans should be applying for entry into SFL 3 now. They can play youngster and ground share at hampden. Tell ALL the shysters where to go. Its your club not thiers

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A newco club needs absolutely nothing except the good will of the supporters. The fans should be applying for entry into SFL 3 now. They can play youngster and ground share at hampden. Tell ALL the shysters where to go. Its your club not thiers


...............................


Why would we ground share at hampden? we can still play at ibrox as a newco if we played at hampden then fans wouldent go


Ed can you please post my message you havent being doing so its getting rather frustrating

thanks


GGer54 {Ed039's Note - Sorry, so many posts say the same things guys so if yours isnt posted this might be why)

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Accepting payment through EBTs wasnt the players fault.

It was Davie Murrays fault.

Davie's dodgie way of acquiring out of RFC price range footballers which helped them win trophies ( i.e thru cheating)

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Liquidation won't bring in more money. Read the statement!!
HMRC will go after those who benefited wrongly from tax free EBTs. That should put a few bob extra in their coffers.

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You can only play at Ibrox if the HMRC or whoever buys the ground agrees to rent it back to you, otherwise you will not be playin there

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Rangers can not afford to stay at Ibrox even as a newo in the SPL, the average attendance will not pay for the overheads. I estimate 30,000 this year, falling to 20,000 in years 2 and 3.

Rangers fan base have been used to success, they will not turn up to watch an average team play fo no prizes.

Anorak.

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The HMRC made a fantastic job of chasing Harry Redknapp for money (wasting 8million of tax payers money) not comparing the two cases but it goes to show that the HMRC are not as clued on as what people would make out or like to think, in my opinion they will get nothing or next to nothing from the liquidation of Rangers and then chasing Murray and Whyte for money ........ good luck for that one, another 2 potentiall very expensive investigations and court cases and no chance of re couping money from either person!

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The government gave hmrc a fighting fund of £800m to fight against tax avoidance/evasion.I wonder how much of that has been spent so far compared to what has been retrieved.?not a betting man but i,d say they have duped the tax paying public more than rangers fighting small issues.remember EBT,S are still a legal tax system.HMRC trying to prove Rangers misused them.

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I can;t believe people are actually talking about supporting a new co. I'm walking away.

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It is a sad day but we have to face fact a bunch of crooks been involved running rangers for a LONG time, personally I BLAME Whyte as we could have paid our current taxes as we had been doing for years. He has pocketed that money the ticketus money , the catering , the bougy and adam money AND it appears the part paid up front for Jelly. I will be totally happy IF HMRC go to town on that little spiv/delboy/crook they are more powerful than the police ! if he and Murray become the focus of GOVERNMENT retribution and we can work our way up with kids next season in Div 3 THEN with embargo over 35000 hopfly get behind us the next year and that means wages for at least SPL standard players so guarantee straight promotion to SPL in 2 years THE HARD YEAR IS NEXT SEASON FELLOW GERS FANS IT WILL BE BIG WIN TO GET PROMOTED WITH KIDS AGAINST THE old hands and hardcases you get in the lowest division. I DO NOT WANT US IN SPL WE ARE IN WRONG AND NEED TO MAN UP AND TAKE PUNISHMENT MIND WE ARE BANNED 3 YEARS EUROPE AND DO YOU REALLY WANT TO WATCH US COME BOTTOM OF LEAGUE CELTIC WINNING BY A CANTER PLUS LIKELY HUMP US 6-0 every game we play them? Better to agree to go to 3rd div and work our way back through the division George

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I've been saying for ages that a liquidator need not homour the deal to sell to Green. Let us see what happens. If a better offer comes in then Green will be told to walk away.

If Rangers Mk2 don't play at Ibrox then where? It will be Ibrox. And there will still be cup matches, whatever league Rangers play in.

The difference between CVA and newco is just a technical one. Don't see why fans are struggling with the idea.

McWulf

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Get real if someone comes in and offers more for ibrox than green does the liqud will accept yhat offer

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Harry only got off with as it was a jury trial. If the Judge had the final say he would have been found guilty

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Sale of the football assets ....

Just the football assets, thats the spl share, and little else, staff, etc etc

not the ground, training center, cups, trophies and history.... they go on the free market and ebay

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The most annoying thing of all (which makes me feel this was the plan all along) why didnt d&f pay tax whilst they were in charge, that is basically the reason hmrc liquidated. the whole thing stinks, go and follow your local club free from politics & bigotry.

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History goes with the SPL share? Under SPL rules no?

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For those pondering on the wisdom of HMRC effectively accepting nothing as opposed to a few quid for the tax payer have completely missed the point! Its designed as a deterrent more than anything else. They are saying we would rather you suffer than accept a couple of million if it means making others think twice about such actions in the future. As for those who see rangers going to the third division and working your way up I'd say think again. A fledgling newco with no players, no Europe, investigations into double contracts, further punishment due to civil court action and potentially being demoted to the third division has no chance of survival. Still fancy it Mr Green?

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Scottish football and Scotland will be better :) FACT

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The biggest worry is that Rangers still have a £10m per annum hole in their finances. A new co will need to cut costs dramatically player cuts is one way, but do rangers need murry park? no they don't. Can they afford to play at Ibrox even on rent back basis... doubtful and especially not if they are in the third division or if they are unable to get SFA registration for a year and cant play anywhere.

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A 'NEW' rangers can start a fresh old rangers are gone and so am I.

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OP - "So how does liquidation get more cash to the businesses if it appears the 'football assets' are going to a new owner/company to start afresh?"

Liquidation will see the other two hundred and odd creditors receive less than they would have through a CVA. HMRC are acting in their own (and the taxpayers) best interests by reaching this decision as they will initially receive a more modest payment but will then be able to pursue the individuals responsible for further payments as well as receiving the initial figure from the settlement. The lesser payments received by the other creditors as a result of HMRC forcing Rangers into liquidation is of no concern to them.

"Is it gloves off against Murray and Whyte...?" Yes to Whyte and no to Murray at this juncture. The BTC result has not been decided upon yet and until it has then Whyte will be the one in their sights as he was the one who withheld the tax and NI payments. If the BTC goes against us then the only avenue left available to HMRC would be to go after Murray and any other directors, etc who were involved with the EBT's as Rangers will no longer exist in its Oldco format and the Newco will have no connection to EBT's and will not be liable.

Brian

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Sfa/spl should offer £8million for Murray park to become scottish national sports centre for all, this will make the pot for creditors more substantial and out bid the asset strippers , and encourage fair market bids for the rest.....

Otherwise it's a fire sale and a £1 could win it all, but this will be a race to the bottom in terms of value, as who would pay £40million for a stadium you could get for £8million?????

Rff should pool resources get some season ticket funds and bid for core Ibrox elements .....


??

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Please note Celtic fc will need to invite you back:) 11-1 votes work it out we own ur destiny. Well comfy!

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75p in the pound would recover history and honour.... But anything less is sure to be historically damning.........

Getting there from 8p is the real issue gers giants should be addressing, rangers can rise again, it's got so much support, but if this support does not support it right the all are doomed

Fans and ex players can help but only if clear coordinated action now takes place, no season tickets as that money in dispute, but if fans put their season money into funds then rescue could happen...

But do these funds go to repair damage, or fund newco

That is the question all fans should address , and there is only one answer, a split decision will doom all

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Liquidation mean sale of assets to obtain best value for creditors. DBO will oppose any sale to Green or anyone else and they will invesigate any dealings of the club inluding Duff & Phelps. It could be a lengththy investigation & mean a newco could not get of the ground. to-days developements means it would be ea

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Dundee united to reject Rfc new co.DUFC see new firm opportunities! From DUFC board member.

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All you need is Celtic, Dundee Utd, Hearts and Aberdeen to vote against the motion to allow Rangers in the SPL, and Rangers are in Div 3. The staus quo is they are out until 8 members say otherwise and Rangers can not vote.

It is possible but unlikely, there is an 80 million sky deal waiting to be signed.

Anorak.

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"As for those who see Rangers going to the third division and working your way up I'd say think again. A fledgling newco with no players, no Europe, investigations into double contracts, further punishment due to civil court action and potentially being demoted to the third division has no chance of survival."

Taking emotion out of it and looking at this purely in terms of a business venture I think you are miles off with your assessment. The double contracts, transfer embargo, expulsion, and/or any other potential sanctions essentially become irrelevant as a Newco, by law, cannot not be held responsible or liable for anything related to the Oldco. It becomes a completely new entity. The only way that would be different in this case would be if the history remained and Rangers 2012 retained the same SFA registration number (i.e. continuing to officially operate as the Oldco and adding to its uninterrupted history). Green admitted this would not be the scenario two days ago and the new club will be just that - completely autonomous and legally disconnected from the Oldco.

If retained in the SPL, which thankfully looks less likely by the day, SOME of the playing staff may remain and sanctions will be placed upon the club by the SPL in relation to a Newco entering the league. Otherwise we will enter the 3rd Div sanction free and the SFL will not refuse a club with such a large fanbase which offers the potential for increasing the turnover and commercial interest in their leagues - there would be a media frenzy for the first season at least as well as a highlights package no doubt. It may be with a team of youngsters initially (the majority if not all of the senior players will walk for free) but we would buy the best and most experienced players available from the second and third divisions to aid them and try and secure back to back promotions. This will be affordable and sustainable, unlike the current scenario, due to the significantly reduced wages (by far the largest annual outlay and the main cause of the '£10m black hole'), the returning control over merchandising and catering rights (current JJB deal etc agreed with oldco - newco will legally have their own rights to these revenues), and season ticket sales (prob 30,000 or so first season due to siege mentality of fans) plus the lack of any accrued debt BY THE NEWCO (other than Green's 'loan' if he is confirmed as the new owner). The club, if indeed in the 3rd Div, will return far stronger than the original Rangers would have if the CVA went through, and the three year European ban invoked due to a lack of three years worth of audited accounts would be over by the time we returned to the SPL anyway.

The history will be lost and we will be in Division 3 (hopefully), that is punishment enough for the fans. HMRC will chase Whyte for the outstanding taxes etc and Murray if the BTC goes against Rangers (once liquidated HMRC won't have a club to chase and the SFA won't have a club to punish over dual contracts as Rangers will no longer exist in the eyes of the law).

Personally I hope they, and the rest of the creditors if they choose to take civil actions, recoup every penny from them. No genuine Rangers fan would want them to lose out financially no matter what anyone says to the contrary. Rangers fans will have a clean, financially healthy club to support and the individuals responsible for this mess will have been held accountable and forced to pay their dues. The club will not only survive, it will thrive within this scenario. Liquidation was always the only way forward for the club and our history is the cost of it. However, if the history is somehow retained through the back door and our membership continued with the SFA as it is now then we would quite rightly remain liable for the financial mismanagement of the club under previous regimes.

Apply to Div3 Mr Green, not the SPL - it is in the best long term interests of the club and the wish of the majority of football supporters in the country in my opinion.

Brian

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Brian,

Give me your best guess on the average Rangers attendance and ticket price in div 3-2-1 ?

No Sky moey and reduced sponsorship

It would not pay the bills at Ibrox and MP, Rangers is an ageing superstore that cannot be tranformed into a cornershop for 3 years.

Division 3 is the road to extinction.

Anorak.

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Anorak,

I read your post on another thread related to the financial aspects of going to div3 and we seem to agree that there may be an initial support of thirty thousand or so which may lessen to 15 or 20 thousand (depends whether or not instantaneous promotions are achieved or not in my opinion) over the next two years. Ticket prices would also probably be the highest in the league by four or five pounds but nowhere near what they are just now. Both of these points admittedly go in favour of your doomsday scenario as the revenues acquired from them would drop by millions from what they are now.

The key elements for me, as I said, are the return of the merchandising and catering rights which would bring in much needed additional revenue that we haven't been receiving recently and more importantly the massively reduced wage bill (none of the big earners will stick around on greatly reduced wages apart from maybe Jig) will also lessen the financial burden and more than make up for the loss of ticket sales. Downsizing can work if done properly in my opinion. Yes the stadium is also desperately in need of repair but if the crowds reduce then work can be done on one section at a time. If the owners deem the repairs financially non-viable within the lower divisions then a stand or section of it can be closed for a year - since no ticket sales would be lost by doing so due to reduced attendances - until it is appropriate to do something about it. There will also be a media frenzy (Rangers are big news and will remain so even in the 3rd div - particularly for the first year) and I think at least a highlights package will be put in place for the third division even if it is only on the BBC or STV at half eleven on a Monday night (no live games may also inadvertently keep attendances up if results are going well). However small by comparison it will still bring in some revenue. Sponsorship may reduce financially but there will still be sponsors and they will continue to put money into the club.

What I am saying is that a support of thirty thousand, added to the reacquired merchandising and catering rights will be more than enough to pay for third division wages (at the very most 1-2k a week) to a smaller squad and administration than we currently have and maintain Ibrox and Murray Park until we can return to the SPL.

Increasing in size again would be the problem for me as speculating to accumulate is one of the things that got us in this mess in the first place.

Personally, I think Rangers going to the 3rd div will be the best scenario long term as remaining in the SPL as an uncompetitive entity (probably with crippling sanctions as well as paying SPL wages and running costs) would ultimately affect attendances and the financial viability of the club far more and probably plunge us straight back into administration.

Brian

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After they voted Livingston down to the Third Division teams like East Stirling regretted it as their teams lost on promotion spots that they would otherwise of obtained.

Airdrie United fans, who avoided relegation two years on the bounce due to Gretna and Livingston being dropped to bottom of the pile became disillusioned losing the majority of games for so long.

So there is no guarentee that the SFL clubs will vote you in unopposed, they may look for sanctions of their own (no promotion for 3 years, or like Livi request you post a £750k bond incase you cannot fulfill your fixtures).

Equally, if a league position opened up for a New Team, Rangers II would need to apply along with Spartans, Gala, ironically Clydebank or any other team wishing to join, so again your bid is not assured to suceed.

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Ground capacity at most div 3 games is average 2000.

So gers can't bring 50000 gates or 5000 travelling fans, the polis costs alone prevent this.....

Gers in div3 would have to downsize their support

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Brian,
Thanks for taking the time to post your two replies, both clearly put and understandable.
Cheers,
OP

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If HMRC are suposedly going after the tax evaders at rangers possibly even the one using EBTS surley these players knew what they were getting into and should be persued aswell.

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Hello Brian,

I believe merchandising is under intellectual property rights and will not be affected by the newco, the name is the same.
I dread to think how many gers fans are going to buy season tickets or turn up every fortnight to watch Rangers play Annan Athletic TWICE.
Assume it is 15,000, this reduces revenue by 2/3rds from 25 million to 8.5 million. Then you have the price reductions, you cannot charge £25 to watch Annan Athletic. Assume it is £20, this reduces income by a further 20% down to under 7 million.

Rangers income is now 18 million per year less, throw in the loss of Sky money and SPL prize mony and you have a cornershop turnover with the overheads of a superstore.

Anorak.

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Anorak,

I do understand the points you raise, and they are all valid. However, you still haven't mentioned the wage budget in either post so far or the compensatory savings that will be made as a result - you have only highlighted the negatives. We would not be operating with anywhere near the overheads of an SPL team and even a 15,000 strong fanbase would more than cover the wages etc involved for surviving in the 3rd div.

As far as merchandising goes you may be right. JJB may retain the intellectual rights to Oldco Rangers strips but a newco will have to rebrand the badge by law etc anyway as it cannot use the old one and there would be nothing to stop the newco using another company to sell a modified strip with the majority of the proceeds retained by the club. The fans would buy them if they knew the cash was going straight to the club instead of just a small percentage of it.

I still believe it to be achievable to drop to the third and survive as a club.

Brian {Ed039's Note -

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Thanks for the reply Brian,

Rangers turnover could drop by 2/3 rds or more, and the overheads are about 1/3, this actually leaves no money for wages.

Rangers is not a commercially viable business on a 15-18 million turnnover, its just not feasible.

Rangers need investment to get back to stability but Scottish Football is a bad investment, there is little potential and plenty of risk.

I honestly believe a Rangers newco only has a 50-50 chance of success within 3 years, I believe Rangers would have no chance starting from div 3.

You assume the majority of fans are like minded, they are not, most will walk away.

Anorak.

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Cheers Anorak,

I know you are an East Fife fan with no ulterior motive and it is good to see your honest assessments as I read the majority of your posts when they go up and they are always worth taking note of. The irony for me is that remaining in the SPL will be a poisoned chalice for the club in my opinion and just as financially non-viable as your assessment of going to the 3rd Division would be. I would predict that within a year, if we do somehow receive the eight votes necessary to stay in the SPL (I don't think we will anyway) and are heavily restricted by further sanctions such as the 75% of league winnings and penalty points etc which have been discussed, the 'new' club will find itself in the exact same position as the 'old' one by the end of the season if we even make it that far. The better players will go for a pittance before the season begins and the ones that will be left will not be good enough to compete for the top six whilst they will remain on inflated SPL wages we cannot afford. No decent players will be brought in either as there will be no revenue streams to support buying them or paying their wages. The fair weather fans and glory hunters will desert the club just as quickly as soon as the first OF game comes around and we get demolished in it as well as having to face the constant dogs abuse which will inevitably come from the fans of every other SPL club home and away that didn't want us to remain in the league in the first place. I honestly believe we would be embroiled in a relegation dogfight from the start of the season unless Mr Green has more money available than he is letting on. We will be financially crippled as a club whilst trying to remain semi competitive in an expensive league. I honestly think we would get relegated. For me the 3rd Div is the only viable way for the club to go. If it means putting up the shutters at Ibrox for two or three years and either groundsharing or throwing up temporary stands at MP to reduce the overheads and remain solvent then so be it.

Brian

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12 Jun 2012 13:55:26
Next few days will be interesting. D&P maintain that they will still complete £5.5m sale to Green. HMRC may take a dim view of this. BDO as liquidators will have power to unwind any deals done that they consider detrimental.

Believable32 Unbelievable12

BDO now in control on behalf of major creditor.
D&P now history. They will not get their £5.5m but pennies like all others.

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Murray bled the club dry with his parasite companies feeding from the club and fans.
Criminal indebtedness and tax evasion.
Whyte was the axe man bringing us to administration.
Green is the axe man to liquidation and loss of Rangers FC inc. 1899.

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If we are going down the newco route then what advantage is Green to us?

We will be a new entity as far as the books are concerned but we will still be the same group of supporters.

Surely now is the time for the fans to step up and own the club rather than an outsider like Green whose intentions we can not be sure of getting it for next to nothing?

Big G.

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That is incorrect. BDO have been appointed to investigate how the club ended up in this mess not to sell the assets! Try reading the statements that have been release any u will see that

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WRONG, Read the person that posted above your post.

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If the sale goes to Green without a hitch,ie no other bidders then I think we will get into the 3 div as there will be a concerted effort to keep us out the SPL next year. If there are new bidders then i would expect a long legal battle which could not reach a conclusion to get us into any league next season. If anyone wants to try for SPL next season then a real real effort would have to be made by us now to convince other clubs that the long lasting decent honest supporters should be allowed in with penalties. However, if we did get back in I don't know if that would be the best idea anyway , a slow slide to the first div next year may await us.

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Isnt there an SPL rule that states an oldco could transfer its shares(history, etc), to a newco? Therefore keeping our status as Scotlands most successful club? Sure I read that a few months ago when the whole history thing was being talked about.

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Big G
I am a Celtic fan and I agree with you now is the time for the fans to take control and get your club back, the true fans now must try and put something together or Rangers could be lost forever, come on Bears get out and fight for your club

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The liquidator (BDO) will take control of the sale away from D&P

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Surely if Duff & Phelps were able to say they were ripping up the Ticketus deal and that Craig Shyte was an irrelevance, they aren't (especially after today's news) in a position to say that the Green deal is binding? Also I keep reading that we should be demoted to Div 3. I thought that we would have to apply for admittance into the SFL if we are kicked out of the SPL - that it isn't just automatic entry.

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How can they know
suppose the liquidators value ibrox at twice what Greene can pay?

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"Isnt there an SPL rule that states an oldco could transfer its shares(history, etc), to a newco? Therefore keeping our status as Scotlands most successful club? Sure I read that a few months ago when the whole history thing was being talked about."

That was Miller's incubator theory - it's in the same basket as the CVA.

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HMRC statement says it won't stand in the way of the sale to C Green it was upto football authorities to find if Mr Green was a fit n proper person and BDO were investigating the mismanagement of finances at Ibrox

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Just a thought but if thier is a sale of assets ie ibrox and murray park would now not be the time for the supporters to now step up to the plate and buy the assets for the fans and get rid of the vultures who only have self interest

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Liquidation is the last chapter in the history, new debt free company. new start, new history.

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HMRC statement dIdnt mention Green, it said a new owner, not necessarily the same thing.

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Do not kid yourself, this was a huge multi-million pound decision, it robs Rangers of a potential 30 million in European prize money plus it reduces the sellability of season tickets for 3 years.
It is conceivable Rangers average attendance could drop to 30,000 losing a further 8 or 9 million per year for 3 years.

Do you think Mr Green is not just a little bit more than disappointed, the newco bid was a bluff aganst HMRC, and thy just called it, I believe Green will fold.

Anorak.

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Still a long way to go....

Battle for the assets - No way HMRC liquidators will allow a backdoor purchase by Green.
Fully expect TBK's and maybe a few others to emerge from the woodwork.
SPL - Share 'may' be transferable depending on the gang of ten.
SFA - Football license is NOT transferable to a newco. The SFA would have to bend the rules to allow a newco to even play in Div 3. SFA football license requires audited accounts.
Europe - Gone for 3 years

So the really interesting scenario is if the gang of ten sell their souls and agree to an SPL share transfer, but that still leaves the newco sans a license to play football from the SFA.

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Re transferring old assets to newco. Does that mean transferring the oldco debts? So why bother. As in the words of Paul Simon "slip sliding away"
WWTP (were)

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12 Jun 2012 13:43:02
Surely if we are liquidated, then it is not the decision of Duff & Duffer to sell the assets to Green & Co for £5.5m.

Can the Blue Knights not bid against them?

Believable28 Unbelievable16

HMRC said they would vote against any of the bidders proposing a CVA.

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D&P can sell it but BDO once in place have the power to reverse (void) the transaction. I would suspect those conversations going on now between D&P and HMRC/BDO. To be fair though, the statement from HMRC did say liquidation gave RFC a chance to be sold on and start retrading, so I think a sale could be done, but Green will have his work cut out around transparency of shareholders etc and working capital projections for NEWCO to get HMRC on side.

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Unless BDO undo any deals then that is a no go

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The blue knights don't have any money.

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Surely if/when the club is liquidated the assetts will be sold off to the highest bidder bringing in more money for clearing the debts of the liquidated club?

What's your thought's ED:? {Ed001's Note - yes, the liquidator will take control of the sale away from D&P.}

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Forget the blue knights you would be better with the baron knights no one will put money in debt ridden and underhand football clubs

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Its highest bidder all the way now - FACT. Whoever pays the most gets Ibrox.

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Mr Kennedy. this is your time. You won't let us liquidate, where are you? {Ed039's Note - hmmmmmmmmn, yes where is he. Too quiet from TBKs)

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Yes and No, it's the highest bidder BUT they must also have the working capital to pay the NI and PAYE every quarter on time and in full.

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The blue knights have no interest in RANGERS they just wanted to cover up their ill gotten gains and hopefully the former directors will be jailed

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Who care about blue knights - they were unable to put up. Was Paul Murray not part of the original problem. Newco is the way forward . Short term pain - long term gain

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You just need to forget the blue knights.....try tramadol nights.

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The tax man should hound all the EBT and get us our money to save the club. {Ed039's Note - They dont do the clubs job for them)

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How about we all stop the come save us TBK or Brian kenneddy patter! Honestly how much more needs to happen before people realise it's over, it's newco or nothing. Quite frankly, TBK and BK have both had ample opportunities to step up to the mark and failed at every turn. Personally I'll be glad if we can get ourselves out of this mess with a bit of respect and rid ourselves of all these hangers-on from the Murray era.

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Stuff the blue knights-- they are yesterday's men. Rangers fans need to accept the punishment on offer. that means at least division 3 or complete oblititeratin

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@ original poster, in theory yes the liquidators could block any existing deal in place, but they don't seem to care about the money from the asset sale, its more about going after the people responsible for not paying tax. Green is not really getting a better deal than the CVA, there will be no euro games for at least 3 years(even 1 in the Europa cup can cover the 3 million shortfall) and he has the fight of his life to get rangers playing in the SPL next year.

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12 Jun 2012 13:04:42
I am a loyal Gers fan and it just so happens that on the 10.41 train from Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen this morning I got talking to a guy who holds a quite senior position with HMRC between Scotland and NI.

We were initially talking about stuff to do with both our jobs (I'm an accountant) and I asked him if he had any info regarding the EBT'S or the CVA.

With regards the CVA, he had told me that HMRC are not in the habit of accepting them but there have been occurances in the past (little did I know it had already been rejected). He said that HMRC are interested in bringing in as much money as possible towards "the public purse" (His words) and that if they had accepted the CVA that this is the only money they would receive. By rejecting it, if Rangers go "Newco" then that leaves the door open for HMRC to still pursue whomever they feel is responsible for the tax evasion.

With regards to the EBT'S he told me that it hasn't been decided yet whether Rangers have commited Tax Evasion because there are "ten's of thousands" (again his words) of companies who use them. The difficulty lies in deciding whether Rangers have used them illegally or not. He also went on to say that if for instance when using them you must satisfy A,B,C and D but Rangers might only have satisfied A,B and C and that you have to use them to the letter of the law.

He said that he feels there are political implications in awarding against Rangers because they are pretty much a test case and it could mean a massive number of companies going bust due to the decision, which is why the decision is taking so long.

I will no doubt get the usual token response from Gers fans who think I'm not telling the truth but take from this post what you will.

BigBear1873

Believable15 Unbelievable26

Nice post mate i believe every word

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HMRC must take the decision to protect the taxpayer. Rangers continuing to default on tax payments would embarrass the HMRC. Also protect taxpayers from present companies thinking of doing the same.

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If they had gone CVA none of the RFC directors would have been investigated further by D&P. This is one of the advantages that CW relied on and was pro-CVA. HMRC knew this and they can go after him and any other director individually for non payment of National Insurance for example. That wouldn't stop at just Whyte and Murray. Ellis, King, Greig etc are all in their sights now.

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There is no chance any decision will ever come out. If a decision was against RFC, then HMRC would have to enforce all the other claims of which there are 000's. If a Decision went in favour of RFC, then HMRC would have to write off all the other claims, of which there are 000's. HMRC wouldn't run the risk of dumping their claim book for one case [would you?]; they can only slowly settle as they have limited resources; this will never be a TEST decision; it will settle privately as will all the others. Liquidation was an absolute inevitability; there was zero chance of HMRC writing off their entitlement to pursue/investigate beyond sale. All of this panto has cost £m's in wasted money and massive wasted time. Blue Knights could probably have done a deal, but Charles Green and an unknown foreign consortium? Not in our lifetime. Expect a clumsy offering to open up the punter pockets to fund a new club with a potential owner that is totally untested, but who stands to own the assets.

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Not a Gers supporter but I am pleased taxman will not accept CVA. Not because of the outcome for RFC but becaues it will mean all those who created this mess are now touchable and will be chased for every penny. I look forward to seeing SDM becoming DM again, CW being hauled over the coals for evading tax and PAYE (thats how they eventually got Al Capone, pity no Alcatraz available although it is worth suggesting keeping some of the dead oil platforms ready) and spending their OWN money to defend themselves.
Looking forward to seeing how the media deal with all the EPL clubs who have abused the system and how they bleat when they see that the SPL ingeneral was small but honest! {Ed039's Note - I would like to see those responsible taken down, we have all paid our hard earned one way or another and been taken for mugs and pay the ultimate sacrifice for any club ......... although at least there will still be a club of some sort to support)

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If Rangers are playing football in some shape or form when all this is ironed out I'll be happy. Don't care what division to be honest. If this is the only way that HMRC can get their money from the dodgey powers that be is liquidation then so be it. I would love to see them all dragged through court, all there shamefull dealings exposed from Whyte Murray and anyone else thats taken a decision to agree in tax evasion.

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That's exactly how the hmrc see it. Current and future revenue, not just monies owed. With a stagnant economy you risk sinking further by clearing out too many debtors too soon. But they do have do start somewhere! I think the media should help the taxpayer by exposing all other ebt cases, & not just the Rangers case. Test case, scapegoat whats the difference?
Murray shouldn't have put Rangers or the taxpayer into such a poor position in the first place, shafted!

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Any employee of HMRC having the conversation you describe on a train or any other public place would be fired.

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12 Jun 2012 12:47:05
IOf we are liquidated, what happens to the outcome of the BTC ed? {Ed001's Note - HMRC get a cut off the proceeds of sales. It is proportional to the amount they are owed, compared to other creditors.}

Believable8 Unbelievable4

Steve q and a on gers at 3pm

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What exactly does this mean? Also do you know when the SPL vote will be ed? {Ed001's Note - just means that the result of the case will mean an addition to the amount owed to creditors. HMRC will just get a bigger cut of the proceeds of sale of assets. I don't know when the SPL vote will be, I doubt the SPL know yet!}

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Ed. is that not the gist of hmrc,s statement? we will get x amount of rfc liquidation ie enough to ignore whyte,s tax bill,but that leaves them able to pursue monies owed via the btc seperately.as in murray is going to be pursued rather than rfc ? dd {Ed001's Note - I believe that they mean they will go after them as well as getting what they can from the sale of assets.}

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12 Jun 2012 12:24:58
“We have been informed by HMRC they will not support the proposal for a Company Voluntary Arrangement at the meeting of creditors on Thursday, June 14.

“The consequence of the rejection of a CVA outcome is that sanctions will be applied to the Club by UEFA and that the Club will not be able to participate in Europe for three years and the new company will need the consent of the other SPL clubs to the transfer of the share in the SPL, in order for Rangers to continue playing in the SPL.

– Duff and Phelps, administrators of Rangers Football Club

Believable11 Unbelievable1

Does this mean that the 15 players at the European Championships and Drogba & Lampart will not be coming to Ibrox next season after all ?

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As I've said before, D&P and Charlie Green knew the liquidation had no chance of being accepted. Now all we'll hear is how they tried their best to save Rangers.

But they definitely didn't, they have helped wipe out a large part of our history and it makes me angry. BB

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Dunfermline now deserve to be reinstated in SPL. {Ed039's Note - Are you a Pars fan by any chance?)

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12 Jun 2012 12:19:10
Rangers to be liquidated. Minimum 3 years out of Europe.
SPL Chairmen likely to vote NO to Newco.
SFA likely to expel.
UEFA likely to Expel.
No History now.
HMRC appointing BDO for Assets sale.

Believable42 Unbelievable17

Queens Park are one of the oldest clubs in the world...Season tickets are Adult - £160. I'd rather support this old co and any new co.

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We will survive in some shape .. albeit battered and bruised.

Sad day!

However .. if liquidation leads to a criminal investigation and sees Craig Whyte in the dock. I'll be a bit happier!

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Stuff them all and apply to join english league at bottom EPL in 6 years see if they last 6 years without us wi no sky money RTID

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HMRC statement says liquidation will allow assets to be sold to a newco!

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Rangers FC plc incorporated 1899 is to be liquidated. A brand New Company Rangers 2012 is to be formed in the hope Assets can be transferred. FIFA, UEFA and SFA will not recognise the new Rangers as an unbroken continuation of the liquidated football club and history will cease.
The issue of offshore payments, double contracts and illegally fielding players soon to be judged. Years 2000-2003 considered 'indefensible' with Ronald de Borr and Torre Andre Flo having played under admittedly illegal contracts and payments.

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Am gutted i think its safe to say rangers are now finaly finished david murry and craig white should never be allowed near ibrox ever again his kight hood should also be taking from him hope there proud of themselfs am just pig sick fed up with it all

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Tim here, take yer meds, see u all in 3 years, what disnae kill u makes u stronger, things might be black now, chin up, don't let the b**tards grind u down. all the best.

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If they have no history, please explain how the SFA and UEFA can expel a newco. Even when the club as we know it, is finished, people still come on here and trash talk. Start in 3rd Div and in 4 years we will be back to challenge again.

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You should ask the "Duffers" for a refund! Hopeless !

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Can we sign players as s newco ?

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History will be intact,debt free trying to take some positives out of this sad day

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Bankrupt and rogue football club Rangers FC to be liquidated and sent to SFL to start a Newco. Punishment for rogue non payment of social taxes, setting up tax evasion mechanisms, fielding illegally contracted players to be punished by footballing governing authorities soon.

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Joining the English league at the bottom will not happen but if it did, it would take more than 6 years - have you seen their pyramid structure?

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"If they have no history, please explain how the SFA and UEFA can expel a newco. Even when the club as we know it, is finished, people still come on here and trash talk. Start in 3rd Div and in 4 years we will be back to challenge again."

They could just reject any application to join, in theory.

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"However .. if liquidation leads to a criminal investigation and sees Craig Whyte in the dock. I'll be a bit happier!"

D&P still not sent the requested documentation to Strathclyde Police since requested in February.

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SFA and UEFA cannot "expel" a newco, its a completely different company with NO liabilities for any wrongdoings of the Old Company.

I doubt even the SPL board members are dumb enough(in a business sense) to reject a club with a following such as Rangers do.

On a following note, isnt it in the SPL rules that Rangers oldco could transfer the shares(history, etc) into a newco?

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History will NOT be intact. Green said so himself in a interview 2 days ago. Stop clutching at straws that dont exist.

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I am afraid a newco at Ibrox in the SPL or SFL will not work, the level of investment required to support Rangers through 3 years of bans, sanctions, stadium repairs and the inevitable fall in attendances, will be too high.

Fans will not fill Ibrox to watch an average affordable team play for nothing, there is no chance of finishing first and no European incentive to finish 2nd, 3rd or 4th.
Once attendances drop to a certain level then Rangers is not a commercialy viable business model, you cannot downsize a superstore into a cornershop.

I believe the consortium( if they takeover) will call in the administrators within one year and we will be back at square one.

ANORAK.

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Oh because Green has been such a reliable source of info so far .

Said he had a deal with HMRC look how that's panned out.

If SFA agree to transfer share to newco Rangers then history intact. Happened with Leeds, Middlesbrough, Charlton, Fiorentina and Reggina in their leagues. History remains. End of.

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Rubbish ^^^^ fans will turn out and support their team they haven't stopped since this cods wallop began rangers will go from strength 2 strength and once again will strut their stuff all just remember who snipped and who wished for what just watch :)

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Put it this way Rankers will not walk through the leagues like a lot of you bewildered fans seem to think. Don't think for one minute you will automatically challenge for promotion from any of Div 3,2 or 1

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Rubbish ^^^^ fans will turn out and support their team they haven't stopped since this cods wallop began rangers will go from strength 2 strength and once again will strut their stuff all just remember who snipped and who wished for what just watch :)
---------------------------------------

3 years is not 3 months, once all the dust settles the fans will walk away, just have a look at Leeds Utd attendances over the years.

Most Rangers fans are used to attaching themselves to success, not failure.

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Sorry our history is gone insolvency law states that any phoenix company is forbidden from passing itself off as the old company so if the newco tries then they could be seen as a continuation of the old co.

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I love this notion that everybody else in the SPL will suffer if Rangers goes. The tone of these posts somehow suggests that Rangers have been done down. All self inflicted. Try to remember that.

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New company,= no history, Scottish football will remind you every game.

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NEWCO & UEFA: Explanation

Chapter 2: Licence Applicant and Licence
Article 12 – Definition of licence applicant
1 A licence applicant may only be a football club, i.e. a legal entity fully responsible
for a football team participating in national and international competitions which
either:
a) is a registered member of a UEFA member association and/or its affiliated
league (hereinafter: registered member); or
b) has a contractual relationship with a registered member (hereinafter: football
company).
2 The membership and the contractual relationship (if any) must have lasted – at
the start of the licence season – for at least three consecutive years. Any
alteration to the club’s legal form or company structure (including, for example,
changing its headquarters, name or club colours, or transferring stakeholdings
between different clubs) during this period in order to facilitate its qualification on
sporting merit and/or its receipt of a licence to the detriment of the integrity of a
competition is deemed as an interruption of membership or contractual
relationship (if any) within the meaning of this provision.

As a newco you haven't been in an association, you need 3 years history before you are eligible is why a newco will face 3 years as it has no history so is automatically uneligible to compete.

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Happy Days for everyone who believes in honesty and fairness. This day has been coming for a long time.

Lets hope CW gets his comeuppance and also the architect of all of this crap SDM also gets his arse kicked over this.

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12 Jun 2012 12:13:58
Multiple sources(including administrators and rst and rsa) just confirmed HMRC have rejected the CVA the club will begin the liquidation process. 5.5m will be payed to creditors and the assets will be given to mr green.

HMRC stated that they would have voted this way regardless of whos consortium was put forward - due to the level of indebtedness. They will also be pursueing the INDIVIDUALS responsible for the mismanagement of the club.


Ryanrfc

Believable21 Unbelievable6

Expect legal action from creditors to stop transfers of assets to green... No way creditors will let £130 million pound of assets walk out of rfc for just £5million......

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Once the voting formalities are over, the tax authority will appoint joint liquidators from BDO to wind up the 140-year-old football club.

The liquidator has powers to examine the governance and administration of the club before its insolvency and report on any issues he feels should be raised with creditors.

Among these powers, include the right to apply for a court order to examine, under oath, people involved with the company.

The liquidator can also sell the assets and the business to pay off the debts and undo any dealings or trading which he deems to be void.

The months ahead are likely to bring more scrutiny on the roles of current Rangers owner, Craig Whyte, and the man he bought the club from, Sir David Murray.

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Think Green is in for a shock don't see how they can give them to him given what is written in the CVA, its subject to creditor approval, put in by HMRC into the CVA, if he does try that then expect Hectors lawyers to put a stop in court rapid as.

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A celtic fan I come in peace but surely this isn't suprising news?

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BDO will have to sell assets to highest bidder. End of. Anyone can step in. Players revert to SFA. Rangers in liquidation will not benefit financially in any way from players. It's illegal.

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I don't believe Green is going to be given Rangers' assets for what is an absolute fraction of their value.

Don't believe the D&P and Charlie Green spin. BB

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Ed, where does CW's floating charge come in to play in all this? {Ed001's Note - I have no idea, sorry.}

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HM Revenue & Customs @HMRCgovuk
Liquidation allows potential investigation and claims against those responsible for company’s recent finances

If I was David Murray or Craig Whyte I'd be very worried. BB

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Not only Whyte and Murray players and managers too should be worried you can't just be given cash as a so called loan without a tax liability + interest falling due at some point!

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12 Jun 2012 10:04:54
Rapid Vienna will be represented on Thursday at the Creditors meeting as they seek to get the £1m still owed to them for the Jelavic transfer.

They are quite right!

But ... have I missed something here ?

Where did the Jelavic money from Everton go?

Surely if has been paid, the £1m balance should have gone to Rapid Vienna?

Or .. if Everton still owe part of the fee , they send it directly to Rapid?

If you buy a car on HP and then sell it on to buy another, you first have to settle your initial debt.

Perhaps another rule which is missing from the SFA & UEFA rule book?

Believable24 Unbelievable5

Cva rejected (confirmed)

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No point- according to STV & BBC, the CVA has been rejected by HMRC. Oor tea is well and truly oot!

NewCo route now, and in my book it should be 3rd Division to try and earn back some respect.

DennyBear

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Privity of contract.

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Everton paying off over 2 years. Money goes to RFC (In Admin)

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It dose not matter now HMRC will vote against CVA
Liquidation it is then

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Celtic fan here, have to agree with the bear saying you should go down to the 3rd, great way to put something back into the game, all the lower league clubs would benefit greatly from the 4 games each season which can only be a good thing for clubs that are struggling.

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Dennybear - it has to be, to at least preserve some self-respect. Rangers (or whatever they'll be called when they re-emerge) can now start to create a history from scratch that won't be tainted by endless accusations of cheating to get it.

The old history is gone. Hopefully the future will be a lot more reputable!

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FIFA/UEFA should make it illegal to sell a player on if you still owe money to another club ,wouldnt be to difficult to check and buying club could just pay original club direct ,so a conman like Whyte gets nowhere near this money

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Final nail in the coffin,,, almost?

Q. WHEN liquidated, would presume Div 3, would be only option. Does the BTC die with the #old' club, do the contracts for Food Outlets, Strips etc get renegotiated with new club.

does anyone know?

bil72

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The car analogy is correct but the analysis isn't. You can buy a car on HP and sell it. And if you are then declared bankrupt the HP company may get nothing.

Unlike a mortgage, where the loan is secured on the property. Rangers' debts, however, are not secured (unless CW's claims turn out to be true).

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Why does Mr Green think he will walk away with everything BDO will sell to the highest bidder, Mr Green is full of sh**, if I were a Bear I would be worried he is anywhere near my club

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