Use our rumours form to send us rangers transfer rumours.
22 Nov 2012 18:42:52
Hi ed. I seem to remember d&f were going to sue CW's lawyers for £30 million. Case was supposed to be in October. Has anything happened or was this just another load of bull?
Blueice {The Ed039's Note - I havent heard anything, but it would be for BDO to deal with now)
Cant see d&p wanting to go to too many courts..... they will have to face questions under oath.
23 Nov 2012 20:46:26
Evening Percy's,
Just having a laugh at all you wounded and affronted SevBears!
What's all this nonsense about you demanding apologies from all and sundry? Are you serious?
You're embarrassing yourselves with this pathetic insistence that we all owe you an apology. For what? Calling it as we see it?
David Murray shafted your club, I know it, Graham Spiers knows it.......everyone knows it!
Rangers got their decision by a majority, there's obviously doubts as to Rangers' financial integrity, doubts we all share.....well, anyone outwith the mighty downfallen!
Even ex-players are now coming out saying they were paid dues through the EBT scheme!
The tribunal result is only the begining, for the sake of integrity I hope HMRC pursue this and appeal. My opinion is my democratic right and based on what I've heard and know, I stand by my convictions......without prejudice.....or an apology! lol
Then there's the issue of side letters......I defo think Peter Law.....oops, I mean Neil Doncaster will have to get stripping! lol
Cue the onslaught!
Miko x
My biggest issue is that you suggest justice by majority verdict is wrong, would you prefer one person makes decisions? In a court a jury rules on majority (unless your America then it has to be unanimous).
Your obsession and hatred of Rangers is just laughable.
But we in scotland, where we have three jury verdicts.
INNOCENT - you are not guilty in any way
GUILTY - you are not innocent
and NOT PROVEN - it has not be proven you are innocent, and not proven your guily.
The FTT is clearly NOT PROVEN - as ranger fc guilty of not paying some tax..., not innocent of all charges, not guilty.
;)
The only people that the former bears are trying to kid and console is themselves.
It's pathetic but hey, we've come to expect this since the first cracks in the marble staircase appeared. Now it's a crumbling wreck, "destroyed" according to their former owner.
Mr Miko,
Thank you kindly for your incoherent rant, it is very much appreciated.
By mentioning Graham Spiers!?!, you have invoked [in terms of talking about Rangers] Godwin's law (google will explain Godwin's law if you not familiar with the term)
Of course employees received payments from the EBT scheme-there would be no point to it if they didn't-but that doesn't make it contractual!
Side letters may state the trust, set up by the club, will provide employees with loans repayable to trust when or if the trust demands.
I see you hope HMRC pursue this-well they can if they want-chasing rainbows is a futile activity!
HMRC will spend many ££££££££££'s chasing this particular rainbow with no return at all!
So to end this statement,conjecture is the position of the unsure!
ThatsNotMyName (x) 4 Mr Miko)
Keep with the 'youse are still guilty' patter, it amuses some of us on here. x
Rangers were kept out of the SPL by a majority, not unanimous. So are you saying that vote was wrong and should be overturned? Ive asked that question twice now but as usual no reply.
Gavla
@6 There was a 10-1 vote for The Rangers not to be allowed into the league, with The Rangers being the only one voting YES, so by your logic everyone says no except The Rangers, so The Rangers win? Don't think anyone has said majority = wrong, just shows that at least someone saw sense.
G93
Nah, not this time Miko. Not gonna bite, you've got me once before but not this time.
@7. That's the way society works, i.e we vote and he/she with the majority of votes gets elected. Most things in life are decided by majority and accepted. It's called democracy.
@9 Yes if you read what I said thats pretty much what I said.
G93
@10. We both agree then. That makes a change on here. lol x
23 Nov 2012 19:43:41
i must say im delighted with the
Tax result but what i dont understand
and really angers me is why when the
club was in so much trouble, why where
the fans asked again to put their hands in their pockets and donate cash to the RFF,
why where the players asked to take a 50%
wage cut, have charity matches to raise funds.
Why werent these loans called in? surely if
they where we wouldnt be in Div 3.
I just feel its the fans that alwys lose
out!!
Lets face it, the supporters done bugger all to preserve the history of the club, they kept on expecting a McCann type to come in and do the dirty work, that McCann type never arrived and the timeline was broken.
I think most The Rangers fans deep down know the answer- because they were not handed out as loans. I know the courts have ruled they were and while I disagree with the verdict I accept it, but does anyone really think that SDM hand on heart issued them as loans and had any intention of ever seeing them again? The fact SDM's maximum out of court settlement offer was £10m when there was over £47m available to reclaim from the loans says it all.
G93
Yes we all know what they were. A legal tax loophole. Hmrc shut it when they realised. That should have been it. Many a man and business has exploited the system . It's human nature. The time and effort of hmrc would have been better spent checking to ensure there are no other 'legal' loopholes.
G93. For what it is worth I actually agree with virtually all that you say. However, the issue I have is that in the eyes of fans like yourself we have went from 'tax cheats' to simply 'cheats' to 'morally corrupt' cheats looking to gain an unfair advantage. It seems to be whatever fits best at the time to retain the cheating aspect. I made a similar point to Tam at the bottom of the page. Every man and their brother knows what the EBT's were designed to do, however, as immoral as they are they are far from uncommon simply because they are a legal means of avoiding tax in this country. Personally, I would make them all illegal but the problem is that another legal 'loophole' will just be found to replace it. Avoidance schemes and other get rich quick schemes are playthings of the rich designed to save them money and are not exclusively employed by Rangers (your manager was involved in one such scheme and Mr Desmond had a history of running hedge funds in his early business days which are just as immoral, if morality is the basis of the argument these days, and their use, long after he stopped his personal involvement with them to be fair, eventually led to the banking crisis).
EBT's worked for Murray as he could pay the players what they asked for at a lesser cost to himself (HBOS really) and the club. Is it morally correct to avoid paying tax, without exception of course it is not. Is it legally acceptable to use them, unfortunately yes. By law they ARE loans, despite everyone knowing that realistically they are not. Unfortunately, morals don't come into it within a court room.
However, one argument I don't fully agree with (that is being mooted more and more on here) which follows on from that argument is the unfair advantage angle (non payment of PAYE and NI aside - which only related to last season anyway). In that case Celtic are just as guilty of underhandedly gaining an unfair advantage, despite not employing EBT's on a large scale, as Rangers are with our 11-1 vote and sharing 80% of the wealth brought into the leagues, to name but two ways we excluded the rest of the teams from ever competing evenly with us again as they once did pre SPL. If that didn't afford us both an unfair advantage over the rest then please define the term for me as none of them have came close to winning the league since. Plus, if Quinn wasn't there to advise against using EBT's at the time then you could bet your bottom dollar that both clubs would have been in receipt of a hefty tax bill from HMRC just like a number of clubs in England have done. On the point of England I also can't remember Arsenal or any other club to date who had a similarly low offer as the one Murray made accepted by HMRC in connection to EBT's being called cheats etc when they actually ended up avoiding paying substantially higher sums of money to the taxman than Rangers were due, or that that gave them an unfair advantage over the rest of the teams in their league. Where is the difference if we are talking PURELY about the legal use of EBT's?
The problem for me is that so many different aspects have been lumped together in our case over the last year (EBT's, alleged dual contracts, administration then liquidation, etc) that people can't discuss one aspect without diverting into another area and any form of objectivity flies out of the window as a consequence and emotion takes over. Am I proud of the club using EBT's or avoiding paying PAYE or NI contributions? No, I think both actions are morally unjustifiable. My problem is the vociferousness of the reaction to the morally questionable practices of Rangers in comparison to all the other examples I have given above. We are not the first club to have acted immorally and we certainly won't be the last.
Brian
@4. And you have hit the nail on the head Brian, no matter which aspect we talk about or are cleared of in a court of law, there are those who now have seemed to 'shifted the goalposts' as to suit their agenda. What Murray did was morally wrong, and 99% of Rangers fans would agree with that. Legally what he did was avoidance and not evasion, therefore did not BREAK THE LAW - Whether the east end accountants/lawyers like that or not, i have no problem if they agree with us that it was morally wrong with what Murray did, but i will not accept the vitriol and spite now seeming to appear as a new line of attack aimed at our club. bigbaz
@ Brian, like I said while I accept the decision has been made I disagree with it. But I'm sure a reasonable man such as yourself had a gut reaction of "what, really!?" to the verdict as opposed to finally justice has been done like some of your fellow supporters who never take off their red white and blue specs. If shock was your reaction then by my reckoning you, like me, think they cheated the taxman.
I'm a law student and my lecturers have said for the last few months that although the man on the street can see it for what it is, they said that the fact the core principle of the scheme was to administer loans could always have helped SDM, as unless there is documentation or conversations recorded between club and agents saying that "come to us, we run a tax evasion scheme, we'll give your man hundreds of thousands as a gift but we'll call it a loan in case Hector comes sniffing around.� SDM knows what he did, so do you and I, but my lecturer, a 60 year old Asian man with no connection to Celtic or The Rangers even likened it to the OJ SIMPSON case with regards to the theory of all the evidence is there to show its wrong, there's just one tiny crucial piece to compound it. Based on the BBC information and my primitive knowledge of the area and the views of my educators I honestly thought that it pointed towards guilty but hey ho.
One last point though, this will have little or no affect on the SPLs investigation, in fact if you pick the bones of it Allistair Johnson has illustrated that EBTs were deployed to pay agreed sums in bonuses. If these details are not found in the documents sent to the SFA upon registration, that fact seriously points towards dual-contracts. So what's worse for The Rangers fans, oldco avoiding a huge tax bill or the possibility of your history standing at 49 and no more?
G93
*one tiny piece of evidence missing to compound it.
G93
G93. I think the outcome of the investigation will make very interesting reading but I also think this verdict WILL have a bearing on it in terms of any future punishments. As Ed039 said previously on here it will have to be worded very carefully and be extremely detailed when released. If the BTC had concluded that Rangers had operated EBT's illegally then the SPL investigation would have been an open and shut case as the side letters would not then have related to loans paid to players by MIH and would have had to then be seen legally as nothing other than contractual, undeclared secondary payments made to the players directly by the club. The verdict now casts doubt on this in my view as the side letters legally become attached to the loans and MIH rather than the club itself who issued the total paid to the trust yearly in their accounts accordingly as the trust was an independent entity. MIH paid the players, if the contracts were with them and Rangers declared the total each year then we may escape by legal technicality just as we did with the EBT's.
The rub for me will be how seriously the panel view the small number of cases which were regarded to have been improperly administered as these will form the crux for any punishment that will come from these proceedings (and there will be some form of justifiable punishment in my view because of this). As usual there is doubt over the numbers involved and I have read figures suggesting between six and thirty five EBT's were inappropriately administered. If that is the case, AND these particular individual cases have side letters attached (apparently not all did) to legally confirm these payments, then technically they become unregistered players in any games they played in and the decision could/should be reversed accordingly. This may still result in titles changing hands but it depends on who they are, how many games they played in and whether or not their mis-administration is regarded as serious enough to justify stripping titles. There are twelve options available to the panel and not a single person on here has considered yet that Rangers may still be found guilty yet be in receipt of a punishment that does not involve the loss of titles (be it financial, points deductions, relegation etc - I do not know what the twelve options available to the panel are as yet). For me the SPL case has went from an open and shut case and the guaranteed removal of titles to a rather less secure case because of this result. I suppose we will find out mid February or so. We have already seen where second guessing and prejudging the outcome has led us so far.
Brian
23 Nov 2012 18:25:08
Game vs Elgin off. "Rangers' Third Division match at Elgin City on Sunday has been postponed on safety grounds because the Borough Briggs club has sold too many tickets". What a bunch of fudds.
Exactly what a bunch of half wits, I said this would happen that these wee teams would never cope with the mighty Gers and there fantastic support, default and give us the 3 points ya bas!
Bit of a fourth division piffle innit? Nobody really cares.
@2 you clearly do otherwise you wouldn't be commenting on it.
Yup nobody cares - except you and your obsessed fans ;-)
Guys, the game was called off because the 1,100 seated temporary stand they erected to accommodate the amount of Rangers fans wanting tickets for the game failed an inspection. They could have just allocated us with a couple of hundred tickets and that would have been that but they didn't. Yes they would have made extra money from it but we would have benefited from it too as more of us could have gone to the game. You are being way too harsh. With no alternative stand available the game became oversold and instead of having a rabble on their hands and over a thousand fans locked out come Sunday they called the game off early instead of asking for x amount of tickets back. Having paid would you have willingly handed yours back? That hardly equates to them being halfwits. I thought we were building bridges, enjoying life in Division 3 and helping out these clubs financially on the way back up. It is stupid comments like the OP and #1 that continually tarnish our club and give others ammunition. Think before you type.
Brian
@5 Well said Brian another sensible post.
Tam
23 Nov 2012 18:07:00
Just over 10,000 signatures since yesterday (22/11/2012) in the petition RANGERS v HMRC to ask the question in Parliament about CONFIDENTIAL INFO LEAKS. Sign on
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/42143
Just added my name, 12'275 latest count. CheltBlue
Proud to see that Gers supporters are now going to give the HMRC a taste of their own medicine by dragging them through the mud. watp
Bears, remember you need to confirm your email address before your name is counted
JG
@3 - thank goodness you didn't have to confirm your email address when subscribing to the share issue. I've pledged about £750,000.00 to friends and family, enemies and allies, fictional and non fictional characters.
What email address ?? am pretty sure iv-set-this-email-up-for-a-wind-up.com is still available
Maybe hoopey will get confused and sign it too as they like to get involved with all things Rangers. Come on and pledge your vote, its really a share issue in disguise.... CheltBlue
It is all just a means to an end. It always was. Another "project" that the Celtic fans are working on.
They Died Chasing Lions.
I know every celtic fan who passes by this site WILL sign it!
Why?
Simple!
They have went on about sporting integrity for so long that they will now want a dull investigation into the failings that have occurrd in hmrc's process! Unless its double standards from them...
@8 Why would we want a dull investigation ?
Tam
23 Nov 2012 17:45:30
Elgin v Rangers GAME OFF
Lol 2 people cant read and just look at the pretty pictures. Game is off for selling 1100 tickets too many! Makes a change to water logged pitches or bad weather.CheltBlue
@2. I get the feeling SKY/ESPN will get 'fed up' with the SPL far sooner than you think if the viewing figures don't pick up. Who'd have thought the 3rd division would have more viewers on average than you're precious SPL?
Wow!! Alot of really bitter fans out there. The only clubs these plans will destroy is the clubs with low income - constant postponement will be out of their pockets and will eventually result in rangers being awarded a 3-0 victory and 3 points for cluba inabilities to be prepare for a game!
How long before sky/espn get bored with division 3? More than likely the summer when rangers are promoted to division 2. Just remember no-one wanted the spl tv deal without rangers who were playing in the 4th tier ;)
23 Nov 2012 16:53:06
Nice to hear a club chairman[ Mr Graham Tatters] speak about the respect shown to his club when visiting Ibrox and he and his club are giving the Gers the red carpet this Sunday.
Just remember, all the stuck up spl clubs, be decent when you are up there as it is a big fall on the way down. We have handled it with dignity and decency.
Irrospective of our current standing, our travels have been a pleasure when you meet people that welcome you and are not after just your cash.
23 Nov 2012 20:40:30
What planet are you on Mr No Name? These clubs are only looking for a quick payday, just like all the other SPL clubs done to us and Celtic for years by raising ticket prices when we were visiting. How can you talk about dignity and decency while typing such utter tripe? If I didn't know better I would accuse you of being a "timmy" on a fishing trip but they have the decency to leave a name when they post. Drop the smug self righteous BS, we are in Div 3, we have zero to be smug about. When we have built ourselves up again and are back winning trophies we will have plenty to be smug about, for now it just looks really sad and pathetic. I thought us Rangers fans were supposed to have some class, some of these kid on fans should take a long hard look at themselves, the legends over the years would be mortified by some of the stupidity getting bandied about by so call Rangers supporters. More like no name keyboard warriors who know nothing about what our club stands for.
Larky Bear
Larky bear your a bit harsh on OP. Building bridges with other clubs is a must after our former owners let us all down. If anyone sounds like a "timmy" fishing its you. Credit to our away fans, making friends and holding their heads high.
@1. Larky Bear, of course they are looking for a payday, but we can be civil towards each other - they are NOT the 'sporting integrity' SPL. I don't like the situation we are in any more than you do - it stinks, but that's where we are, and we have to get on with it. We've got to keep filling out Ibrox and show our detractors that you can kick us when we're down but when we get back to the top, a swift kick in the hawmaws is coming back their way tenfold. We need to unite and defend ourselves vigourously from those who would attack us, then we'll have the last laugh. bigbaz
23 Nov 2012 15:25:25
Well it was nice to see wee Jim Delahunt getting his ear cuffed on Clyde the other night, in a well-balanced, controlled arguement fron a gers supported. Is been fairly obvious that he continually takes calls fron celtic supporters, calling for more and more sanctions on Rangers. And he never calls for restraint, and continually agrees with the assessments of sanctions, and cheaters, and title stripping. In essence he pre-judged us, and should be punished. As a presenter on the show he is supposed to present balanced, neutral arguements, and has failed miserably. Indeed the other night when a few more vocal bears were on, after the not-guilty verdict, he actually had the gall to urge celtic supporters to call! I dobt remember him urging rangers supporters to call during the dark times? I think he should apologise, of have his posion reviewed? Anyhow, today I'm wearing my new t-shirt that says SAY SORRY in big letters, I think these should be on sale in the Rangers shop. I think 40,000 turning up at Ibrox in SAY SORRY tshirts would DEFINITELY get us onto the national press, and raise the profile of this one-sided witch hunt. and the profits fro 40000 t shirts could be put to cash for kids, gaining us valuable kudos. Come on Bears...., come on the Rangers shop, come on the Rangers family, wear them with pride...SAY SORRY!
Bluebells are Blue
I take it the other 20% who aren't wearing these ludicrous tshirts are the ones with brains and are educated , their tshirts are likely to say "we're sorry"
Totally agree with OP tee shirts should be made available for the 8th December home game
i wonder if Timalloy or Miko or Stevo could send us a link to the Rangers Tax Case blog as it seems to have disappeared of the face of the earth lol
i heard the blogger is now sharing a cabin somewhere in south America with Lord Lucan
Lochaber Bear
Lochaber bear, I heard hes swapped safe houses with Craig Whyte.... CheltBlue
40 000 t shirts ... vat at 20% am sure hmrc are right behind you,s or have you got a scam to get out of that too
SAY SORRY to the hundreds of buisnesses& individuals whom where left with nothing,absolutely astounding the cheek of yous,tax case means rfc won an appeal,yet still owe millions due too agressive tax avoidance,stevo
Make them out of Rabbit hay, no VAT lol CheltBlue
WE SAY SORRY
may be better shirts, and repair the global brand ranger was....
Questions in parliament (good place to raise questions about dodging taxes ) ...
Calls for policy enquiry into release of financial details to BBC, as if the BBC will reveal thier sources !!
What happens if there are calls for police enquiries into the actions of the rangers directors....
the EBT may be largely legal (some of it was not) , what about with-holding information on it and failing to pay the taxes that arose from its use - is that legal?
@2 happy to oblige just went into RTC moments ago, latest blog 21/11/12 talking about appealing the big tax case.
http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/
or just do what I did put in Rangers Tax Case and up it comes, it is also on twitter.
This still has a long way to run, do not gloat too soon. lol Timalloy
It is perfectly legal to withhold information unless you receive a warrant demanding the information.
It is also perfectly legal not to pay the tax right away - as this is undecided until now.
If inland revenue send you a letter saying you now owe us £xxx amount. Do you say "yes mr tax man" or do you first query the decision? Thought so ;)
@9. But we're guilty until proven innocent, that's how their justice system would work.
23 Nov 2012 13:18:19
Right heres my idea for football change.
uefa gather player stats ( goals scored,conceded,passes complete/incomplete etc etc) from the past 3 years and introduce a player rating system with capped salary fees and wages for said player
example:- level 1 player .. messi , ronaldo- transfer fee to buy 30m with wages of say..... 80k per week
level 2 player .. wayne rooney,xavi,iniesta and so on with 28m transfer fee and 75k per week
u get the point lol
these levels for talking sake go up to level 200 and to the far reaches of each governing bodies professional leagues.
i think this would end the monetry disaster that just about each and every club in world football is facing right now.i understand the players may be able to challenge this sort of ruling as it would restrict their potential to earn but hey! how much money do some of these over rated players actually need?
just a thought and i realise i will probably be slated for this lol but i will put it out to my fellow bears and our hating neighbours
thoughts?
I agree that to control the finances of football clubs ts the key to future stability. Players are overpaid and the solution may be to set wage caps, but the criteria to set these caps would be difficult to establish.
The problem will always be that rich individuals invest in clubs and use them as their toy, so although the investment is massive to the club, the loss is insignificant to the investor.
Although, sometimes the investor manages to bluff people into thinking he/she has clout and he has nothing. Ring any bells?
Level 2 players Xavi and Iniesta !are you having a laugh? And who is level 200 ? Div 3 Scotland ?........DH
Look at american football, if you win the super bowl or you league you dont get best picks in the next years draft.
If you loose, you get first pick.
So no team wins for 9 in a row, and its exciting every year... all with a chance, true sport.
Unlike SPL where only 2 clubs with a real chance to win
@3 Dont you mean 1? CheltBlue
@2 geez a break pal am jus floatin a daft idea lol im sorry a dont have the final draft to save world football being a lowly supporter n all pmsl but hey i do genuinely believe that this sort of idea could be the way forward but i stress it will take the right ppl within the game to take it forward.as i said im jus a supporter throwin an idea to ma fellow bears and the haters pmsl
23 Nov 2012 11:20:53
no one is saying the Taxman as a government origination is bias or corrupt but it is very possible that individuals with power within such an organisations abuse those powers for personal vendettas or personal agendas.
what is very clear is the fact that sensitive documents where leaked to the press and to certain internet blogs relating to Rangers v HMRC this breach of confidentiality must at least be investigated and the source of these leaks dealt accordingly
lochaber Bear
Have you read the 140 page judgement?
HMRC were quite right to pursue the matter, they tried from 2004 until 2007 without cooperation from Rangers.
The tax liability from EBT's was reduced NOT ERADICATED!
As for anything else, it's called journalism. It's not a concept we are often exposed to here in Scotland.
I have noticed a large increase in "Rangers abuse" since the result of the BTC. If you thought it was bad before, hang on for the ride now. They seem to have shifted their stance to using "It wasn't unanimous" and the evidence is "damning against them, the are morally corrupt, therefore cheats", "Masonic judges" etc etc etc etc. Once again we are having to defend ourselves from the bigotry stemming mainly (but not exclusively) from the obsessed East Ender's who obviously 'spat the dummy oot' when they didn't get the verdict they were looking for. It would be better for them to spend their energies getting out and filling those empty seats at their grounds that have increased since the start of the season.
@1. If HMRC 'wanted' Rangers to co-operate. believe me they would not have taken NO for an answer. HMRC have an amazing amount of 'Power within the law' in relation to tax.
@1 The tax liability was VASTLY reduced, if as you say you would have seen that from reading the written judgement.
@2 I wondered how long it would have taken them to come out with that nonsense. Best is there are 4 Masonic Lodges in the Vatican, so they can blame them!
Not only did we have tax experts, insolvency experts from the eastend after the decision we now have part-time QCs experts on tax and even judges! All comedy gold.
They have their excuse now,
It must be down to their never defeated always cheated upbringing and continually pimping it.
@2 those obsessive eastenders will stop at nothing till they ruin Scotlands greatest club,
The bogus calls to SPL chairman,
The bogus offers of support for the fighting fund
And now the bogus offers of buying shares, one poster on this site boasts of it.
Their phoney supportive posts are nothing more than hypocritical and a trip to their site will show how exactly they feel.
and a lot have been found out!
Leave them on their journey to Wembley (lol) and lets concentrate on getting back where we belong.
54 league titles and still going strong.........
@1. HMRC are entitled to pursue any Tax matter they deem fit, that's the law of the land, but this is more to do with convicting us through trial by media, internet and spurious rumours by people who have an axe to grind with our club (yes i do mean the east end lawyers/accountants etc) long before the judgement in the case was released - is that journalism or nothing more than perpetuating hatred towards us, attempting to justify it as the 'truth'. W
The tax case only decided that the operation of the EBT Scheme wasn't illegal. It has REDUCED the tax liability as �some' of the payments were not loans and were confirmed as payments related to playing for the club. So the outcome is:
1 Tax is due (from Oldco) for some payments made to players.
2 For the payments declared loans these should be repaid by the recipients � players and staff.
3 As some of these payments were football related and not declared on player contracts this virtually decides the SPL tribunal as guilty.
The only outstanding issue is what (if any) the punishment will be.
@ 5) Great post ... you understand completely that 'Sporting Integrity' was just a front for the eastenders to vigorously attack our club. Livi Blue
@7 try and dress it up however you want. NOT INNOCENT ! FACT! - tax bills to be paid.
think the word you looking for is NOT PROVEN.
@8. Exactly, the EBT scheme was NOT illegal, therefore not cheats.
1. Yes there is Tax to pay from the Oldco, that was thanks to CW - We have never denied that fact, but that was not part of the EBT scheme we were being accused of. Too many non Rangers fans chose to ignore this fact and combined this with the EBT Tax liability to decry us as massive tax cheats.
2. I agree with you, that players/staff should pay the tax they legally owe, not morally owe, as i do not believe in moral judgement - too many hypocrites in society lauding 'do as i say, not do as i do', MP's and their expenses spring to mind.
3. They were Loans, so no need to declare them on contracts.
4. SPL will have to be very careful how it words its verdict, whatever their decision.
5. As for punishments, i take it certain elements will not be happy whatever decision is given except title stripping, although even then that will not satisfy the blood letting of some of them. I fully expect the SPL to drop/water down what they have planned previous to the EBT judgement to now more than a slap on the wrist.
From News media websites "A man has been arrested in connection with allegations that offensive material had been posted online relating to the Rangers tax case.
Strathclyde Police said a 37-year-old from Glasgow had been arrested on Thursday by the national Football Co-ordination Unit". Watch what you type timmy .
At 5, still going strong, i think youll find your club is not going anywere but into the unfortunate pot of liquidated organisations.
54 and thats a wrap. whether titles are stripped or not, what arguement will yous have once celtic over take your precious 54...........what will the rangers be on 3 slf titles?
At 11 - how can you say with a straight face that Rangers weren't cheats?
They went through last season and didn't pay any tax (VAT, NI & PAYE) whilst there opponents did, that's not a level playing field? Continuing to operate whilst insolvent is also illegal.
@9. Not just the eastenders, there are many throughout this land of ours who have used Sporting Integrity as a mask to verbally attack our club to a greater or lesser extent. They seem to forget that they cannot selectively choose which points they decide are covered by Sporting Integrity, then completely ignore others as it does not fit their agenda.
At 12), yeah the guy was a rangers supporter replying to a comment from a celtic fan, he made secterian.
beware what you type, give it a rest, everyone is entitled to their opinion and we live in a world of free speech do we not.
@14. Be careful about using the word cheat, some people will be regretting their choice of language sooner rather than later.
1. The tax you describe was due at the end of the financial year, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER CLUB. Technically every club was cheating then by your reasoning.
2. Players play football not tax receipts, so it was a level playing field as you put it. 11 vs 11 in case you forgot.
3. We did not 'continue insolvent', outwith the EBT we had a manageable debt until Whyte came along.
Lochaber...it was like the Poll tax, Scotland were the test case if you like. If they had declared the side letters may be they would not have left themselves so vulnerable to this.
Its alright saying they did not have to but they were also hidden from the Auditors..you have to ask Why ?
Rangers were not perfect, innocent victims that were picked on. You take chances then unfortunately you leave yourself open.
17 , I don't need to be careful whilst I'm being accurate and honest.
Rangers went bust/bankrupt were consigned to liquidated after not paying their tax bill.
Their opposition, fellow SPL clubs were paying theirs. Rangers cheated their opposition.
I know the word cheats is hitting a raw nerve within certain quarters but its reality.
So has Rangers paid the money STILL owed on the big tax case? What about the wee tax case, last years tax and NIC's and the hundreds of people owed money including YOUR fellow fans who owned shares in the dead club? CHEATS THEN, CHEATS NOW, CHEATS FOREVER! Scottish football and society will NEVER let you forget the shame you have brought on this great wee country we live in.
They Died Chasing Lions.
All of their opponents paid their tax bills? Arent hearts and dumfermiline - of rangers opponents currently being chased for tax bills??
@18. Fellow SPL Clubs? Hearts and Tax? Rangers cheated no-one, we were adjudged so by the tribunal. As the mantra says 'Celtic never defeated, always cheated'.
@19. Oldco Rangers were/are being liquidated, in an ideal world that would not have happened and we could have managed our debt/tax and paid what we owed(If not for the EBT case). You seem to think you speak for Scottish football and society - a bit like your chairman sitting in the background pulling the strings of the SPL/SFA. What is this shame you speak of? We have been cleared of wrong doing, or does that not fit with your ideal of a just society. Keep the 'vic-TIM-isation' going, it seems to fit well beside the chip on the shoulders of a large section of your teams supporters.
18. The only people on here using the word cheat, are the great offended from the east end. Hearts have tax payment problems now, will you attack them with the same vitriol? Nothing hitting any raw nerves here apart from pathetic tim posters who have their own agenda and are still spitting their dummy out after Wednesday's decision.
@ 21 in an ideal world dm would have stuck it out if he didnt think he done anything wrong and knew he would win the case then why jump ship ?? why sell out knowing the consequences he should have managed the debt until the result if you want to look for whos to blame look closer to home
@21 So why has the report stated that in some instance's tax has not been paid ?
Tam
@23. It's called covering your ar*e, DM knew the case was 50-50, he wasn't 100% sure Rangers would win the EBT - he was pretty certain but not totally sure. He's a business man and they protect themselves first, look at Whyte - he decided not too pay NI/Tax, his thinking "debt might as well be 100 million instead of 75 million, makes no difference i'm going to liquidate them anyway". I will never forgive DM or CW for what they did to the club, as it was all about self preservation, and in CW's case - making money through suspect motives, certainly wasn't about his so called 'love of Rangers'. bigbaz
Depends on your view, the vast majority of the payments were loans so says the Law of the land, Rangers EBT scheme cleared and have no case to answer.
1. When the verdict was adjudged a 2-1 outcome, certain people attached themselves to the fact it wasn't a unanimous verdict. The outcome still stands, whether or not Rangers had 100 loans vs 20 suspect loans, overall they were CLEARED of any wrong doing.
2. When a jury is directed by a judge that he will accept a majority verdict, say of 8-3, that does not give the accused the right to say that it is unfair because it was not a unanimous decision and a retrial is in order.
3. What Murray and Whyte have done, is morally reprehensible and especially in this time of austerity they have no excuses, but it was not illegal, and at the end of the day is what this is really about. W
23 Nov 2012 09:40:03
tried to gp onto the "award winning" website to read their apology to rangers but it has gone, for some reason it redirects me to sportinglife, whats the odds that they have gone underground
JG
Well that's a lie.
@1 the whole thing was a lie - and slanderous!
The good thing is that it was all written down in a "book" (i use the word loosely) so it will be easy pickings for the lawyers
JG
23 Nov 2012 09:21:42
SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster may be asked to take a back seat on plans over reconstruction, with several clubs worried that he is tarnished after his handling of the Rangers situation over the summer.
This is according to the Sun...I'm thinking that if they are that bothered about whether the way rangers were dealt with over the summer as criteria for discussing league reconstruction the premier league clubs are the ones who should be taking the back seat...thoughts?
Neil Doncaster is just a Celtic 'YES' man.
I thought McCoist carried himself with dignity at the media conferance today.Did not rant about anybody ,after previuos showing the lad has been well advised to be carful with his opinions.
Doncaster wanted newco in the spl the directors voted against it so i think you will find its the complete opposite of your thinking no one is desperate to keep you in it if that was the case why would they vote against it
@2. Good comment - Cue the abuse now from the usual sources!
@2 McCoist and DIGNITY in the same sentence?
@3 Don't talk rubbish. Doncaster represents the SPL board. i.e. he speaks for, and on behalf of, the very directors/chairmen you mentioned. He is the representative figurehead for the SPL, not the driver of change or a sole voice. He can't and doesn't act alone. They all wanted Rangers back in the league, admittedly crippled with sanctions, for their own financial security and you are completely naive if you think otherwise. To turn your point on its head, if they didn't want Rangers in the league then why did they even hold a vote in the first place? It only became an issue of 'sporting integrity' for these people when their own fans militarised, backed them into a corner and blackmailed them into voting 'no' as they may have lost out even more financially by keeping Rangers in the league. Doncaster is just a figurehead, nothing more, and the outcome of the vote was supporter driven, not director driven.
Brian
@ 5 it was the chairmen / directors who voted not doncaster so what exactly do you think doncaster should have done ?? and was it not your own supporters who backed them into a corner by demanding the 3rd ?? did you not threaten every spl club with a boycott if you didnt get 3rd ?? you got what you demanded so stop throwing the dummy out the pram
23 Nov 2012 07:30:41
i understand people have to do their jobs or in some cases, be seen to be doing their jobs, but i feel a line was crossed by certain bodies, who were on rangers case, it became personal and there seems to be an underlying tone that seems to be emerging, what was there real motives ?? i feel it is time for these indidviduals to be brought out of the shadows, its time to name and shame !!
23 Nov 2012 11:36:00
I think you Gould also be directing some of this on rangers. They delayed this for three years, ruining chances of someone decent being interested in buying rangers. What about 'mr red' holding up proceedings? If rangers had cooperated from the beginning, maybe they would not be in this situation. Yes, there was still debt there, but Murray could have cooperated and the whyte situation may not have happened. Hmrc had a right to investigate.
23 Nov 2012 06:27:24
big question is why hmrc did they knock back £10m 2 years ago.why let craig whyte not pay ni and paye for so long when theyve pulled hearts after few months.think they wanted us to go in adminisration
HRMC dont accept 1p in the pound... deals.
two ebt schemes, rangers (using MIH management) and MIH (using MIH management) ...
We know rangers moved £45 million into thier scheme, and some of this is due tax.
We dont know how much MIH put into thier scheme, but given MIH 10x size of rangers one can see the potential.
This is about MIH ebt tax bill, not rangers.
"when theyve pulled hearts after few months"....
hearts on thier recent winding up order after 8 earlier warnings...?
HRMC raised winding up order on Hearts,
allowing negociation.
Ranger put themselves INTO administration.
23 Nov 2012 06:21:02
Fellow Bears, IF EVER you wanted affirmation that "no one likes us", the reaction by non bears to the BTC and especially HMRC seeming likely to pursue a case where they CANNOT achieve any financial reward, as we have been told endlessly by one and all the case is for 'olco'. Sadly the SPL are clearly now jumping on or rather staying on the hate Rangers bandwagon. We are currently proven innocent but people are only squirming and trying to justify pursuing us futher. SPL should take a look at the state of their governance and throw in the towel. WE HAVE BEEN AMPLY AND AS IT TURNS OUT GROSSLY OVER PUNISHED FOR OUR 'SINS". I am happy to let them all do as they wish. We are here, likely back in TOP Division, whomever running it in 2 years and no doubt in my mind BEATING Celtic in our first season back. DO ALL YOU CAN........ NO ONE LIKES US (you can't use the cheat integrity bs you all simply hate us... jealously of the best is common)..... WE DONT CARE.... see ya in whats left of top division and prepare to be hammered on and all Rangers wont forget the treatment we receive as it turns out wrongly.... WATP george