Rangers Banter Archive May 23 2012

23 May 2012 22:30:45
Not on to gloat after tonight's BBC programme, sadly all you bears are
now finding out what we Tims knew months ago, through RTC and especially CQN who were telling us these things even before RTc...
It looks like there is not one honest person within Ibrox, not even D & D
it is time for all the true, decent fans of Rangers FC to now stand up and
take your club back...
Sadly, your fans are being punished and your name tarnished by these
selfish greedy small people... Timalloy

I would not like to read your comments if you were gloating, but you do refer to decent fans and that must go in your favour. Hopefully our club can get back on an even keel and eradicate the, once and for all, the shysters who have stripped our great club of it's assets but the dignity and respect for which we are recognised throughout the world. I sincerely hope that all those involved in the financial deception are dealt with and the whole fraudulent dealings are investigated by the authorities. When the culprits are exposed let THE GLASGOW RANGERS emerge as a co-op and give the power to our loyal fans. P.S. timalloy, don't be smug as you do not know what is lurking in your board room. We'll be back, bigger and stonger.

@1, we do know whats going on for our board lets us know and have the right ppl in place, no one would EVER tarnish the Celtic name like your legends have to your club...i hope you dont let them off and indeed make it uncomfortable for them, seems like for most of your fans the love of your club over shadowed asking questions when dodgy things were starting off....we do feel sorry for the decent fans.

How about next weeks lottery numbers while you're at it....hmmm....no didn't think so.

23 May 2012 22:41:52
Has Green pulled out yet? What was exposed tonight was shocking. Look forward to Murray's next press release

Green is part of the gang. Green and whyte.

23 May 2012 22:39:16
This might be a bit weird but id like to thank personally marc daly who undertook this mission to try and sort this mess, at first i thought what a plum but now he and the bbc are asking questions..... it is too late now i think but at least people are getting found out......
sad days
craig+babybear

Decent fan,s like you are who i feel bad for you will be back it will take a while,garlar07

23 May 2012 22:32:39
Rangers Fans are like the man who laid awake all night wondering why the sun rose in the morning - then suddenly it Dawned on him !

23 May 2012 22:16:16
Tonights documentary was nothing more than those with half a brain already knew! This should of been highlighted and reported months ago! What a load of s**t, someone looking for thier 15min of fame! It is a scandal how nobody has come out to comment on these issues months ago, was any of that tonight a shock? No it wasnt!

I agree, it doesn't really change anything other than making D&P look even more dodgy than they do already. Rangers-wise nothing changes.
McWulf

1# Nothing changes? i would think the EBT nonsense was put to bed.GUILTY. or have all your legends paid their"loans" back in the last hour?

23 May 2012 22:07:26
I do not know what I find more disgusting. Tonight's BBC disclosures or the fact the Fighting Fund is being used to pay for the maintenance of the ground!!

I am disgusted. I donated my own money in the hope it would help along with other contributions to repay small creditors in full.
Can we sink any lower?

It was bad enough keeping the gate money from the Legends match after originally announcing proceeds were going to a charity....

I appeal to anyone who donated money to the fighting fund to complain vigorously to Walter Smith as the Trustee and demand the monies used from the fund are repaid and are ONLY USED TO REPAY SMALL CREDITORS....

Truly pathetic....it seems my club truly has no shame!

SPM

Absolutely spot on am disgusted by RFF. I like you donated to help pay small businesses who suffered at our hands. I did not and would not donate to grass seed, absolutely disgusting. We may have no players to play on the pristine pitch. I will be complaining tomorrow in no uncertain terms.

OP and 1# Well said.As usual decent fans are getting the shaft. A real shame for people like you.

23 May 2012 22:06:19
Don't quite know what to make of tonights program.....

If the taxcase is still ongoing, how did Mark Daly and the BBC get their documentations? Are they photocopies? Wouldn't the HMRC need these documents for their current taxcase against Rangers? Also, why would the BBC broadcast this instead of going straight to the SFA with their evidence?

I got the impression that Mark Daly wasn't 100% sure about the situation.

Perhaps I'm just being optimistic but it didn't really give much away. We all knew there were folk on EBT's, nothing changed there, and as I said the EBT case is still ongoing......

Duff and Phelps however, get them tae Fleck.

What's your take on the situation Ed?

TTG {Ed001's Note - I just thought it was a bit of a nothing program to be honest.}

I think they broadcast because Doncaster and the SFA dont seem willing to act ,after this though they have no choice

Ed how can you say this was a nothing programme.Are you having a laugh.It was a major expose of alleged fraud,deceit,lies and corruption.I would seriously question your position. {Ed001's Note - you can question what you like but nothing was exposed and nothing new came to light. I think you need to stop questioning me and try to understand a little, this showed nothing I didn't already know about. If you are so blind you didn't know about it, then there is no help for you.}

Ed I'm with you, but I'm sure that ian Beales up to no good. You was watching that? {Ed001's Note - what are you talking about?}

23 May 2012 21:15:01
put the lights out and lock the doors,ashamed at whats been going on,duff and duffer green whyte they r up to something asset stripping most probably think hmrc will get rid of them now,grieving bear what do you reckon ED {Ed001's Note - HMRC don't have the power to, they would have to go to the courts.}

23 May 2012 21:09:57
Just watched, whilst Murray, Whyte, Duffers are being rightly exposed, what was the last hour about, nothing that has not been known already.

Duffers position is now untenable but with all due respect why has it taken so long for this conflict of interest to be revealed. we knew Grier was involved in the purchase, we knew that whyte wanted duffers and so what's new?
We know that duffers are earning a fortune, we know deep down that duffers are Whyte's puppets. Heard nothing new.

No doubt this will be all over the press but there is nothing that has not been mentioned before.

So much for taping, so much for the declared new revelations, so much for a waste of an hour.

The training ground MUST be renamed tomorrow, his knighthood must be stripped immediately. Duffers MUST be brought before FSA who MUST act on the conflict of interest, and they MUST be replaced immediately with no payment.

Have their intentions been for themselves, of course, but we all knew that. Are they working for whyte, of course, but we all knew that?
Is Murray a chances, yes, but we all knew that. Is whyte an asset stripper, yes, but we all knew that.

That's an hour I won't get back, what a waste of tv licence payers money, just read the papers.

The newspapers did NOT reveal PROOF that the EBTs were used in a way that contravenes SFA/SPL regulations..smoking gun...

Ah! Did you know about Prince Albert?

Agree. And where was the evidence of the 2nd contracts were promised?

Why are you jumping around NOW with all these MUST statements if you KNEW it all before??

The biggest waste was your silly marches to empty buildings!All happened on your watch.Timmy conspiracies eh?

The bbc never didnt proof anything either

23 May 2012 21:19:39
I feel like everyone has stolen from us left us with nothing and now they want to lock the door WELL ITS A BIT LATE white and all his pals and there pals have picked up clean duff and phelps out youve a vested intrest for white and his cronys just get out and give us the keys well fix it ourselfs royalflush

23 May 2012 20:42:33
OMG Prince Albert of Monaco was supposedly going to invest in rangers. They called his office and his Royal Highness has never heard of crag whit.Oh whit is n ow a Motherwell born BILLIONAIRE. On 6 May he walked into ibrox as a hero.Speirs is dissing this big time. Uncritical gullible stuff

23 May 2012 21:03:45
Well it would seem the two contracts or "side letter" issue has been put to bed.The consequences of this might be very severe,eg; trophy and title stripping,law suits from other clubs etc.There now is no doubt that rangers cheated financially.What price dignity now eh?

Mark dalys programme taught us nothing new, Craig Whyte is dodgy ffs, spoke about the legal definition of a EBT .I honestly expected something worse for me most of it was purely speculative .I see that a few that had their letters typed before the programmed aired posted them anyway as I expected , no matter what the content, it was always going to be irrefutable because it suits their agenda.Waste of time really.

RS

You never needed this programme to give u no doubt that we cheated.Its what u want to here it could be proved tommorow rangers never cheated and you would go see told u they cheated.Its what u want to beleive so even if u were proved wrong u would still believe you were right.

Could you enlighting me where in the program it showed one side letter?All it showed were the amount of persons involved in EBTS.No side letters stand corrected if you can point me to which part of the program i should look at.

3# ronald waterhaus? FFS how much proof do you need.Any players paid there loans back?

23 May 2012 20:20:55
The Scottish Premier League insists that its investigation into alleged undisclosed payments by Rangers is being 'actively pursued'.

The SPL released a statement shortly before a TV documentary on the finances of the Ibrox outfit, which includes examination of the Employee Benefit Trusts the club used in an attempt to reduce their tax bill.

An SPL spokesperson said: "The investigation into the EBT payments made by Rangers FC is being actively pursued on behalf of the SPL.

"All relevant documents, materials and information have been sought from Rangers FC and we look forward to receiving full co-operation from the club and its administrators in providing everything that it and they have access to and which is required for the investigation to be completed."

So obviously all the documents haven't been handed to SPL yet? probably should have asked BBC instead of D&P?

Your grand children will be Celtic fans.henke7

Who should have handed over the documents ? I thought we have been in admin since 14th of Feb.I honestly could not tell you who is looking after the club at the moment ,D&P will be concentrating on the creditors as has been pointed out almost daily by the east end paranoids.

RS

23 May 2012 20:00:16
I hear Bernard Tapie wants s word with Walter Smith. Lol

23 May 2012 18:24:54
The Scottish Premier League insists that its investigation into alleged undisclosed payments by Rangers is being 'actively pursued'.

The SPL released a statement shortly before a TV documentary on the finances of the Ibrox outfit, which includes examination of the Employee Benefit Trusts the club used in an attempt to reduce their tax bill.

An SPL spokesperson said: "The investigation into the EBT payments made by Rangers FC is being actively pursued on behalf of the SPL.

"All relevant documents, materials and information have been sought from Rangers FC and we look forward to receiving full co-operation from the club and its administrators in providing everything that it and they have access to and which is required for the investigation to be completed."

Lawyers
The SPL launched its investigation into the matter on 5th March, with the probe covering the period stretching back to the competition's inception in 1998.

SPL rules prohibit payments to players that are not made "in accordance with a form of contract approved by the SPL".

The league instructed its lawyers, Glasgow firm Harper Macleod, to investigate the matter.

The use of EBT payments was the subject of a tax tribunal in January with the outcome still to be announced, but Rangers could be liable for a bill of up to £75million.

The club previously admitted liability to the tax authorities for a £2.8million scheme which benefited Tore Andre Flo and Ronald de Boer between 1999 and 2003, although they did not pay before going into administration in February over an unpaid tax bill of £13million

23 May 2012 15:52:01
THE SPL war over whether a Rangers newco should face sanctions exploded last night as two club chairmen offered radically different views on the matter.

Kilmarnock�s Michael Johnston dropped the biggest hint yet that he would vote NOT to hammer Gers.

But St Johnstone�s Steve Brown is adamant he wants the Ibrox club punished for any wrongdoing.

Simon_RFC

Kilmarnock have a vested interest ,with the debts they have, they could be next. so its no surprise they want to go easy if I am truthful the moral way is for Rangers to go to the 3rd and start again

23 May 2012 13:57:00
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Doncaster Dooms SPL


22/05/2012115 Comments

Neil Doncaster’s intelligence-insulting interview on SSN this week places another few pieces of the jigsaw together as to how plans are shaping up to deal with Rangers’ corporate failure. Others blogs have already dissected this interview very well, so I will not dwell on the details. Instead, we will look at what is shaping up as the plan “to fix” Scottish football.

As we have discussed for several weeks, Doncaster wants Rangers in the SPL regardless of how much they owe HMRC or other football clubs. He wants them in the SPL regardless of whether cheating on a massive scale has occurred or not. Doncaster’s attempt to bluster his way to getting acceptance for the idea that a CVA and a newco-Rangers are the same thing is just stunning in its gall.

Doncaster is a key player in this dance. Therefore, I assume that he has been made aware of the Duff & Phelps plan. His interview this week was simply a crude attempt to blunt the impact of any accusations that might be contained within the BBC Scotland documentary to be aired on Wednesday night at 8pm. Either through an incredible degree of cynicism or playing the role of useful idiot, Doncaster’s cheer leading is key to a plan that will do more to destroy the Scottish Premier League than any loss of income from the temporary absence of a Rangers-type club from could ever do.

One must assume that Doncaster is actively delaying the report on the dual contracts. It would take less than twenty minutes for any lawyer to see that there is a prima facie case against Rangers FC. Demonstrating a prima facie does not require looking at every piece of evidence or even getting close to providing proof. It is literally a check that “on the face of it” there appears to be something behind the allegations. Doncaster denies that there is a “go slow” instruction on this investigation. In the fullness of time, it will become clear that something is amiss.

The law firm of Harper McLeod have been hired by the SPL to investigate if a prima facie case against Rangers on the dual contract issue exists. Let me help Harper McLeod out a little.

On 28 July 2001, Rangers played Aberdeen at Pittodrie. Rangers won the game 3-0. Making his debut that day was a German who would later go on to become General Manager of Bayern Munich, Christian Nerlinger. He also scored one of the goals. That game against Aberdeen marked the first game where the EBT scheme that is the subject of the ‘Big Tax Case’ interfered with the Scottish Premier League.

Harper McLeod should take a look at Nerlinger’s contract filed with the SFA. Next they should obtain Nerlinger’s contract documents and payment history from Rangers FC (IA)’s administrators. Comparing the contract to the payment history alone will expose payments of well in excess of £1 million that are not listed on his SFA-registered contract. There is your prima facie case, Mr. Doncaster. There is no need to investigate any further to demonstrate that Rangers have a case to answer and that an independent inquiry is required.

It is clear that Doncaster just does not care about the rules. He just wants a Rangers in the SPL next season. Doncaster’s “CVA / newco- what’s the difference?” routine presumably betrays some insider knowledge of how this pantomime will play out. My thoughts on how this will most likely end are laid out below.

Talk of a CVA is just window dressing to appease the less realistic element of the Rangers support. Whyte can pledge his shares in the club for £2 safe in the knowledge that a CVA is not going to happen. (Strictly speaking, Whyte himself can always scupper a CVA).

We are heading for a newco of some description. The key point, Mr. Doncaster, is whether Craig Whyte’s floating charge is still meaningful. If it is (and people with more advanced legal training than me cannot find a consensus on whether it will be) Whyte will be content to let this drama unfold. His friends at Duff & Phelps will continue to potter about while reality continues to sink in with the wider Rangers support. In the end, Whyte will play his trump card and call in a receiver who will sell all of Rangers’ assets to a newco for a sum that will go entirely to Whyte- stuffing all of the other creditors. A plan to achieve this outcome would explain a lot of Duff & Phelps’ actions over the last few months.

If Whyte’s floating charge does not support a legitimate debt (and I expect some court drama over this point), then Rangers’ assets will be sold to a newco and the proceeds divided among the creditors. They will be lucky to receive 5p/£ even in this path, but they would not get more in a CVA anyway.

A newco of some form is inevitable. The liquidation of The Rangers Football Club plc is also inevitable. The debate is not over whether the newco will enter to Scottish football, but over how. If Doncaster’s dream comes true, and newco-RFC just start playing in the SPL next season without any penalties, then Scottish football is dead.

There are many other possible formulae for a fair outcome. Many Rangers fans want the newco to start in SFL division 3 and play their way to their place in the SPL like anyone else. It is also possible to have the newco pay an “entry fee” over a number of years that would serve as a deterrent to others. It would also serve, to a degree, as compensation for the carnage wrought on the Scottish game by Rangers during the years of Murray’s excesses. There are lots of ways to arrive at a fair outcome. However, the money-men who might own newco-Rangers will not want that and Neil Doncaster has their interests at heart. Sport? Fans? Mere irritations


Paddy Malarkey(taken from RTC for discussion/information).

Neil Doncaster and all the West Coast media backing a newco are only thinking of their own jobs in this sorry saga! Is anybody else uneasy with Doncaster at the helm of scottish football, with his 80s hair style? I can't take the man
seriously.

Content good in places but too emotional.

WOW that was nearly interesting but then it dragged on longer than what is happening at rangers lol.But it is good to see so many celtic fans educating themselves in the laws of the land.Bet they would never have done this if it wasnt for the trouble rangers are in.Ah well nice to see even when were on our knees we still provide a much needed service.

23 May 2012 13:13:13
Ticketus in the papers saying they are unlikely to oppose a CVA. I must say though, i hate that we are dodging our way out of paying our doos.

Dont matter HMRC dont do CVAs

What I can't understand is if cw borrowed the money of ticketus to buy rangers then how can that debt legally belong to rangers?

HMRC do accept CVA's if they feel its properly put together.
The HMRC agency that decided on these proposals is called Combined Voluntary Arrangement Service (VAS). Currently it votes in favour of around 70% of proposals.

But the problem is it will only be accept if the plan is well structured and by a company that have been compliant with the tax rules in the past.

Happens 'every day' in business.

If that's the way you feel, then let's dissapear, not even into the 3rd, just fold completely, because it doesn't matter what div we are in, we still havn't paid.

However, watch all of football falling soon, there will be loads more like us.

Why do you think the Killie chairman is saying, no more punishment for Gers?

That is because they owe 11m, which they can 'never' pay back, he knows they are next.

Oh, and just because you are not in admin, means nothing, because Killie, Dun Utd, Aberdeen ,Hearts etc etc are NOT paying their creditors either, if you owe 11m, 4m, 1.5m or whatever, you are NOT paying your bills,..just the same, so that is the reason that most of Scottish football, WILL back us (they may kid on and make some noises) because they know that they are on the next bus, and whats good for the goose now, will be good for the gander when the next bus arrives.

@1: they're actually unlikely to agree to one with a business that has withheld tax monies. Doesn't mean they will or won't, though. No-one knows until they make a decision.

@4: what if the other clubs are paying their debt off at a rate agreed with creditors? That means they ARE paying the bills so it's not the same as Rangers. Do you understand what serviceable or manageable debt is? It's what Rangers' debt wasn't.

If Killie go into administration their fans will attempt to save them. Unlike a team based in Govan. Never before have so many "fans" done so little for their club.

23 May 2012 11:40:05
Question, even with the tranfer ban, are we able to sign loan players or amature players? Statement, if we do have some money for under 18s there must be a few world class kids about who, even if young and raw, could make an impact for us next year and beyond. If your good enough, your old enough!

Any really promising kid is never going to come to scotland.The next gen tournament is their shop window

23 May 2012 10:53:41
We are hearing a lot of "HOW TO PUNISH THEM" I'm talking about Rangers of course.I really think it's about time the SFA got it's act together and put into place sporting rules / laws which would ensure that this kind of situation NEVER happens again, the first thing they MUST do is put into place "fit to hold office" criteria and THEY should be responsible for ensuring all football club owners and office holders are deemed by them to be fit for the job, it is far too difficult for a club, any club to realistically do these checks, all we have to do is look at the Rangers situation to see that,other examples, who do think tells the owner of Chelsea / Man Utd/ Man city how to run their clubs, now imagine a club that is in difficulty, can clubs in this type of situation really pick and choose, and do they have the expertise to do this correctly, I'm afraid the answer is NO, so it should be down to the governing body, to ensure that clubs are being run properly there MUST be supporters on the Board, they would undergo the same checks as the office bearers , Directors etc and also why not put someone from the sfa on the board of each club that at least would ensure the the rules were being respected.This at least would ensyre that this kind of nightmare would never happen again.

Laughable! For months you were warned about whyte but it was timmy at it.Remember? Your fan groups swallowed the "off the radar wealth" nonsense and cheered him down Edmiston Drive! Remember in Whyte we trust? 25m war chests? The info was out there but your arrogance was,and still is,astounding.

To No 1, I wasn't talking about Rangers , only using them as an example to underline the SFA'S total incompetence in dealing with such matters, I also tried to underline the total absence of any rules covering this type of situation, why such aggresivity?

23 May 2012 09:26:02
The below is from today by Alistair Johnston.

SIR David Murray allowed his ego to run riot at Rangers, then made a �panicked� decision to sell the club as it teetered on the brink of ruin.
That�s the explosive verdict of former Ibrox chairman Alastair Johnston on Murray�s Ibrox �dictatorship�.
In an unprecedented and extraordinarily detailed attack on Murray�s stewardship of the club, Johnston claims the tycoon was warned extensively about the dangers of selling to Craig Whyte.
He says Murray carried on with the deal because of �significant pressure� from the club�s bankers.
And he says a senior boss at the bank told him that Lloyds, who were owed £700million by the rest of Murray�s empire, had �incentivised� Murray to hand Rangers to Whyte.

Johnston, 63, once a close ally of Murray, now no longer speaks to him.
In our exclusive interview, he said: �Chairmen and chief executives are often the subject of fans� ire for selling players, or allowing guys to leave because of unaffordable wage demands and so on. On the the other hand, you take Sir David Murray.
�He got too immersed in the fans� perception of himself � as well as his own ego and invincibility, probably.
�In the last few years he lost his business discipline, then panicked when he saw Armageddon coming.�
Murray, who famously boasted in 2000 that Rangers would spend £10 for every £5 spent by Celtic, sold Rangers to Whyte a year ago for £1.
The Record has told how, before the sale, a private investigator�s report on Whyte�s business record was passed to the Ibrox board.
And Johnston, who was ousted by Whyte soon after his takeover, spoke at length about how closely Murray and his Murray Group of businesses were made aware of what the detective had discovered.
His allegations are highly significant, given Murray�s later insistence that he had been �duped� by Whyte.
The SFA disciplinary panel who slapped a transfer embargo on Rangers criticised Johnston, and other men on the Ibrox board, for not doing enough to stop the sale.
But Johnston said he and his colleagues expressed their concerns about Whyte �very vocally�. And he insisted there was only one man with the power to keep him out � Murray.
Johnston said of the detective�s report: �It was made available to us and I did see it, like I saw a lot of other information and data that was presented to us or leaked.
�But all that information was shared with the Murray Group, because there wasn�t much we could do about it other than jump up and down and scream and shout, which is what we did.
�In terms of something to do about it � that is, not consummate the
transaction for these reasons � then David Murray really looks like the
only person who could actually have done something.�

Johnston never accepts liability for any of this yet HE was Zchsirman of the Board!!

Getting the knife into Murray before tonight?

23 May 2012 08:40:12
Fellw Bears ...read Alastair Johnson's comments in today's Record re: Murray's stewardship. Truth starting to come out? Who knows. However the one sound bite which Johson offers ....stating Lloyds heavily incentivised Murray to sell to Whyte ...I believe to be true. In fact I woud go further an say Murray was given 117 Million reasons by Lloyds to accept the Whyte deal! Let's see if Mark Daly discloses that little tit-bit!

SPM

Lets be honest lloyds would have sanctioned a sale to al megrahi if it meant gettin thur dough bak end of!

23 May 2012 01:20:53
Reading yesterdays S*n, it is no wonder we are in the predicament we are in, Healy is being offered an extension on his present deal on pretty much the same terms.....£10k a week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i know we cant sign anyone over 18, but surely we could pluck a couple of 17 year olds from the lower leagues who would bust a gut for the team and would cost a fraction of the price, just a suggestion to the prospective owners, I dont claim to be a business magnate but I mean, our expectations aren't really that high for next year (and probably a couple after that) so try and blood some youngsters, you never know they might shine and then we could sell them on for a few quid, but as I said I'm no businessman................maybe I'll get on the next board????

If true,thats a damning statistic.No way is he worth that kind of money,mccoist dznt rate him either