Rangers Banter Archive April 23 2013

23 Apr 2013 20:36:43
What is wrong with people here and the new CEO calls? Walter Smith could not run a Pie shop, Nor Souness, they manage football teams not finances. Give them 10 million - what would they do? Spend it wisely? No buy a big name striker. Remember how we got here?

23 Apr 2013 21:31:49
I bet you souness knows all about finances, got to when another club pays you money when your employed by another, I'm pretty sure he knows every trick in the book lol

Souness? The guy that spent £50m taking NUFC from 5th top to 5th bottom in the EPL?
Well. if you've got money to burn I s'pose, go ahead, why not! (NUFC fan)
. wake up bears, your coffee is getting cold!

@2 Ask Paulo Di Canio about beating teams with huge budgets! GEORDIES 0 - MACKAMS 3

@3/ Aye, because Sunderland have spent £520 on their player pool. What a dopey post

@4 PDC has spent nothing ya dope, the previous managers have

23 Apr 2013 19:03:30
When are we all going to get together - ST holders, shareholders, supporters associations, fans, players and everyone else - and let them know that until we see full transparency of who owns what etc etc then there is no way we will be renewing season tickets next season. There is too much division between the fans as well as the board. Some people like Green some don't, fans are divided in opinion. Rumours that Malcolm Murray hasn't had access to the accounts where the share money went to, if accurate, is just ludicrous - why would he not know or be denied? If John Brown knows something then a whole host of other so called 'Rangers men' know stuff as well but yet we the fans have to suffer again and again. Why can't Ally or Walter come out and say that they've seen who owns what and tell us the truth. If these guys know, then they are every bit to blame for this chaos as all the rest of the liars. We all need to be on the same page or we are screwed forever.

23 Apr 2013 20:02:15
bring in Souness as ceo NOW The only man with enought clout (and fans respect) to rid our great club of all the crooks sausage bear

I know i'm going to get slated for this, - but we should stop paying our money into the club - then we will see the truth come out rather quick! - Its going to hurt but i'm not putting any more of my money into CG or CW pocket!

I guarantee smith& mcoist know who owns the deeds etc. but will sit back& milk the fans dry/for months& months have been told too get all factions of fan bases& trusts etc too unite & march too ibrox front door in tens of thousands & demand answers asap. sm

No1, are you having a laugh, souness is the biggest crook out there

@1: you do realise a CEO needs to be someone with business experience?

No 3, seldom have I read such a ridiculous post, You can guarantee smith and mcoist know about deeds, really? well front up with your proof person

@1) Souness a major EBT beneficiary, and a very questionable transfer involved aswell. He's a million miles from being clean in all this.

@7 your talking absolute nonsense! Souness was well gone from Ibrox before Murray started using EBT's (LEGALLY) may I add!

@8 how were they legal? You lost the EBT case! The only thing you won was being able to hang on to your tainted title! A bit like this years tainted championship you won too! Answer this, how do you get fined for winning a case and then and the being the winner having to pay the court costs? Have you ever heard of that? NO, I didn't think so ya fud!

@8, you're right that Souness was well gone before Murray began using EBTs, which just makes it even more dodgy that Souness received an Employee Benefit Trust from a company he was not employed by.
Al

23 Apr 2013 16:06:59
John Brown coming out this week saying "it will get worse before it gets better" implies he knows more than he has revealed. Without question McCoist and Smith know the same if not more. Not one person is prepared to stand up and say this is exactly how it is, sure there are reasons for that but if I had to sum up Rangers thinking now and in my opinion for a good deal longer it is short-termist.

I'm going to start as far back as 2000/2001 believe it or not. As far as I can see Celtic broke the Scottish transfer record when they signed Chris Sutton (£6m). Maybe it was the old "for every fiver Celtic spend. " hubris of David Murray but within months Rangers forked out £12m for Tore Andre Flo, perhaps stung into action by the 6-2 game who knows.

Now, two things about that, the last time the world transfer record doubled or more from one record to the next was in 1952 (after a 20 year gap might I add). Transfer records generally don't get doubled in three months, it was shockingly short termist and why? Because Rangers were net sellers for the next 4 seasons because of it and we all know what money saving scheme was implemented soon after. £12m was a criminal amount of cash to be spent on one player in Scottish football and arguably was the start of the demise of Rangers. But Murray had a mantra to live up to. Ahhh good old mantras, filled with wisdom and longevity, erm maybe not.

Moving much closer to the present day, Dunfermline let players go, Portsmouth let players go, HMV and Woolworths close stores, Rangers find themselves in administration and try to sign a player. Eh? I'm still flabbergasted by the attempt to sign Cousin, as well as being financially irresponsible and going completely against the grain of general administration wisdom it showed utter contempt for their creditors. Not one player sold on (of any real monetary value and yes clubs in administration can sell players). And the reason for this "It gives the club a better chance of being second in the SPL" and hence get the extra £900,000 difference between what they got and what Motherwell received.

Am I correct in thinking they didn't get this money as oldco were the benefactors? And did they get a bean for any of this much valued squad come the end of it? Nope, they all TUPE'd at a worth of possibly £30m. Every bit of that because of short-termist here and now.

So Green takes over despite numerous people questioning his background and links to you know who. Surely if the club owned the deeds etc the easiest thing in the world would have been the renaming of Murray Park, it didn't need cash, anything, just a simple name change, hard to do that when you don't own it I would imagine however. Similarly the term in the prospectus "USE of Ibrox stadium etc" should have had alarm bells ringing but nope, let's ignore this, bypass that, get a license and get tons of dough in from an IPO.

On the playing front, awful as the team was, Rangers strolled to the third division title, the justification for the criminal expenditure to get there was "good cup runs", which after three relatively early exits became "our sole priority this season was promotion. " Losing a million a month being just an insignificant by-product of that therefore I'm guessing.

And is the lesson learned? Nope, links to Miller, Daly etc with the sell-on value of a week old pint of milk suggest this is presumably still seems the preferred option.

Whyte getting D&P picked as administrators ahead of HMRC's choice was all but celebrated in here as a great victory, the same D&P that dragged the whole thing out further by delaying documents to the SPL and SFA.

From top to bottom the siege mentality of not giving one inch and seeing a battle won today as the be all and end all has ultimately led this club to losing wars on numerous fronts. Small, pathetic, defiant games of oneupmanship rather than taking the necessary hits and coming through it ultimately in a better place has been the ruin of Rangers. And still no one in the know has voluntarily gave any of you the detail you so crave.

Non-exec board members surely were remiss in not asking pertinent questions of Green and the reason being they either did know or didn't want to know, not one of them looked at the bigger picture and thought if Whyte is involved this could be license revoking which would be the ultimate disaster. "Aye ready". For what? To put your fingers in your ears and say "I'm not listening".

Long before Ally talked about cleansed (more or less paraphrasing Paul Murray at the same time by the way) I said you needed a root and branch clearout, short-term papering over the cracks can no longer be the way to do it. They've did it, all of them and you the fans, in the most part, have either sat silently, embraced it or applauded it to date, if you want a Rangers at all, that has to stop now.

Gaz

An excellent post. If any can put up a counter argument I will be surprised. This heads in the sand attitude has to stop now. Harsh realities must be faced head on. Make no mistake, a CVA could have been achieved but Green did not want this, despite the nonsense he spouted at the time.
As Gaz says, a sale of any high price players should have been the first thing D&P did. This would have brought millions in to the club and reduced the wages dramatically. Murray park should also have been sold off, again millions into the CVA kitty. HMRC would have then been much easier to deal with with regards to paying the debt off.
This might have taken 7-10 years, but the attitude was take the cheating, but legal sadly, way out. Liquidate and an IPO. Ally and Walter will not come out of this clean.
Why did Walter come back to the club? He must have trusted Green, like Ally. Did neither of them ask John Brown what he knew? I find that hard to swallow. Neither have ever said a bad word about Murray, even though his dealings started this shambles, Why? This is now very serious, questions need to be asked and answers demanded.

23 Apr 2013 18:14:56
if John Brown knows anything at all why has he not made it public he has always stated he is a Rangers man I firmly believe that there is a lot going on at Rangers which will probably shock us but i'm sick to the back teeth of bomber spouting the I know this and I know that without actually telling us anything.

SO BOMBER PUT UP OR SHUT UP if you can't tell us what you know at least tell us why you can't tell us

Lochaber Bear {The Ed039's Note - LB, Bomber and Hateley are doing a thing at the BA Club on May 12th, you should head back home and you can ask him yourself mate)

Great post mate, not very often I read the full post when its as long as yours but I kept reading because everything you said was spot on. Top to bottom my club is a farce, every descision that has been made has been crooked and I honestly fear we won't be around next season.

Good Post Gaz. Spot on. The siege mentality however seems to have taken hold of most bears, refusing to see what has happened and Bears own apathy to what is going on. Constantly typing "WATP" is not really helping - it does the opposite.

Why the silence from our head of communications Jim Traynor?
Why is there no communication? Is that not his job? Years and years as a jounalist and yet has he bothered to ask anyone who owns Ibrox & Murray Park and been provided with any evidence? Basic journalism that him and all the rest of the mainstream media seem reluctant to find out. Why??

I was planning a visit ed got to visit the grand-kids up in the planny was planning to go up next week but I might just wait till the 12th and see what they got to say cheers for that will you be there

Lochaber Bear {The Ed039's Note - Just remember thats the end of trials)

Gaz. best post I've ever read on here and I can't argue with a single word of it.

Cheers folks, you do know this is Gaz the Celtic fan right? :)

Question EVERYTHING, who gains what and why. This is going to be messy as hell and in the short term will most definitely get worse before better but if you want your club to be accountable and responsible, the powers that be need to know you won't accept crap anymore because it suits or is in the short-term interest.

Gaz

23 apr 2013 13:38:55
yet again fans put money into rangers when we are asked to, yet again new people come in under the radar, take control of our club, then in the passing of time the truth seems to come to the surface about their background and motives. my point is this, who is regulating these people in the first place, their must be governing bodies who must look at all purchases of major clubs/businesses, and how its being funded, if this is lawyers or accountants or goverment depts, questions have to be asked. what roles do they play and what guilt lies at their doors, that these conmen can come in and dupe a club/company, and its inocent fans, not seemingly once but possibly twice, its a disgrace!

I honestly feel the supporters should be doing more, twice in a row hook line & sinker, believing to be hard done by, everyone trying to boot the club etc, the supporters need to be more humble, the new club needs to be built back up over 10 years at least.
So stop all the pathetic watp, 54 & counting, then now and ever crap, get rid of the bigoted nonsense, and above all blaming everyone for your own downfall.
There is decent supporters out there, but the problem with some supporters is they expect someone to come in and plough £ms into it, and that is never going to happen again, the sooner that is accepted, then maybe you won't be duped again.

Nope - sfa says company has to self certify itself and carry out necessary checks.

If company dodgy and can't be bothers - SFA simply removes licence.

If they do this - value of RiFC = 0.

Some good points. The governing bodies you refer to follow a paper trail. This is very easy to circumvent as the buyer supplies these details. People like Whyte and Green are very good at this, it is what they do. The seller will also conduct due diligence, but again this is not difficult to get around if you have a seller needing to sell. The fans have been shafted, no doubt, but some blame must lie at the doors of the supporter groups and individual fans. After the shambles with whyte the speed with which they jumped into bed with green was stupid. There were lots of warnings about this guy, as with whyte, but these were ignored. Why?

Why didn't you ask the question BEFORE you put your hard earned cash in. Too late to ask now!

23 Apr 2013 17:42:19
Don't know why the Celtic fans are crowing.

Just heard that they've had to reduce ST prices by £100 as they miss Rangers so much and can't even fill their stadium on title winning day lol

With the likes of Wanyama, Hooper, Ledley & Kayal & Foster all wanting to leave they probaly realize that there ain't going to be any big CL matches next season

Looks like Rangers on a much lower wagebill will generate more income than Celtic nextseason. Ok things ain't so bright at Ibrox but are things really any better in the east end if its proven that Charles Green doe actually own Ibrox and CW is lying again?

Unbelievable post. The SFA have no access to the information required and have no budget to fully investigate every financial and legal aspect of a club. It is up to you to self regulate. It is up to the men at the top to make sure you are being properly steered.

Men like SDM who washed his hands of you. Men like WS who bolted, but returned to take an extra shiling. Men like AMcC, who has blindly backed every incumbent and pleaded with fans to part with their hard earned (even though he must have know what big JB knew).

A few men warned you. Pretty sure Bain, Johnstone, Greig and big JB all made worrying comments. But no, the fans only wanted to listen to what they wanted to hear.

It's a conspiracy, the SFA/SPL/SFL have got it in for us. We were relegated 3 divisions. It's Lawwel's fault. The most punished club in history. We don't do walking away. WRTP. Only Man United would be bigger. Deal with the Cowboys. Debt free. £10m budget for players.

This is just some of the crap I have listened to over the last year being told to me as if it was stated by God himself. Proof that you listen to what you want to hear.

Time to man up fella's. Not the SFA's fault, not the SPL's fault, not even Celtic's fault. So called Rangers men put you were you are.

Best of luck getting were the good fans should & could be. But remember that evil thrives when good men do nothing. So true!

Shuggy -

@5. Come on man. If Green owd anything he would be at Ibrox right now and not in France. We need to take a good hard look at ourselves and stop the Celtic against us competition. We are in dire straights man and no amount of wishful thinking is going to stop that. If were not happy with Smith, Ally or the investigation team then we need to pull together, not part with our season ticket money and DEMAND the truth. Until we get this the Rangers Supporters Trust should start demos and give direction as to how we progress. Rangers fans deserve this after all the misplaced trust we have shown. The trust should start again only when whoever wants our club proves they are fit to lead it.

@5, Deary me. I think you have bigger things to worry about than other clubs fortunes next season. I'm not going to try to enlighten you as you are obviously past help.
Al

@5 - You are truly unbelievable. Firstly Celtic are in a great financial position after years of prudent management and an excellent past 12 months. The management at Celtic have chosen to reduce prices - something I am grateful for - they haven't been forced. No champions league? Yes the route in will be hard but our performance this year shows it will be far from impossible. As for players wanting to leave, they will, its part of our succesful buisness plan, but when they go they will bring in decent transfer fees! I am then sure our excellent scouting system will unearth more first class talent to develope. However if it makes you feel better then have another pop at us or more sensibly go worry about the mess that your club has become!

Pedro

23 Apr 2013 11:14:52
Ed, somebody further down knowledgeable about LSE said he thinks there's £8m left from share float end December.
Well that means £14m is used up. Where did it go? We were told share money cannot go on operating costs.
Does it take £14m more than is brought in to run the club for a year? If it does, then its not possible to get through next year. I think this is the real main threat to the club and Whyte is all noise and deflection. Has the money just drifted away with the smoke? What do you think? {Ed001's Note - without access to the accounts, no one will actually know, though we do know a large sum was used to acquire the car park, so that does account for some.}

It's pretty obvious that running costs have eaten a chunk of it. The Green figure of £22m is also shrouded in secrecy, remember Traynor slipping up and saying it was more like £9m? It is a total shambles. The legal bills alone from fighting whyte will run into hundreds of thousand pounds. Orlit still have their petition lodged in the court system, and it looks like a fine from the AIM at least. If more ordinary fans lose share cash they are all to blame, Walter, Ally etc. Disgraceful.

Don't forget the court expenses from the walking away mob and also the fine from the EBT case you won too (getting a fine for winning a case pmsl what you like lol). And what about the money owed to the workmen at ibrox too?
What ever happened to the commonwealth games grant to fund refurbishment to ibrox? Where has that gone? Maybe there's another expense that has been brushed under the carpet too.
Did we ever hear about which charity was the grateful beneficiaries of the Utd scottish cup proceeds? Hmmm that went quiet very quickly didn't it!
Wow it's going to be pretty embarrassing to have your company kicked out of the alternative stock market when your club has been found out about lying to the stock exchange! Could imagine no honest company will be ever wanting to touch rangers for a very long time after this fiasco!
How is the sponsorship, strip suppliers and renaming of ibrox going too? No one has mentioned anything about that yet have they!
What about SFL license too? Maybe your friends in the sfa can get this all swept under the table for you all AGAIN! let's not talk about the tainted sfl3 title also, fact is you shouldn't have ever been allowed to play in the league, but once again deception, lions and secret handshakes from old friends got you in!
April is drawing to an end and still no audited accounts. Maybe need some extra chefs in to keep cooking them books lol

Ed, D&P stated publicly they sold the car park with Murray park and Ibrox on liquidation to sevco5088.
How can somebody take millions in share money for something sevco5088 already bought?
And surely D&Ps lawyers on selling property on D&Ps behalf and the purchasers lawyers are forensic in their titles documents?
Is D&P heavily involved in jiggery pokery here?

Also Green said he paid millions to D&P for the players contracts but they walked away. Why didn't Green sue D&P for that money back?

I don't think £5.5m actually changed hands at all. Funny how it matched D&Ps fees. All square on paper. {Ed001's Note - that is why the whole thing is being looked at.}

Stop it, my sides are hurting, {Ed001's Note - vile little boy, don't come back, scum like you are not wanted here.}

Green director of 8 rangers subsidiaries - is he getting paid for each, will there be accounts for any of these?

Lots of payments each month, to make that £1m loss. consultants, agents, security guards all in firms/org green runs.

Why aren't the police involved. Its a huge scam, has been from the start, and totally obviousfrom day one

Scum that's a bit harsh, If the shoe was on the other foot eh ed? {Ed001's Note - you didn't see what the rest of his post was, hardly shoe on the other foot, I have morals.}

23 Apr 2013 21:45:37
Jim Traynor let slip the total raised was less than 9 million, face facts its all gone, cannot lose 1million a month and still have money in the bank, and the way green and co have set up all the subsidiary parts its them who profit not t. r. f. c, be lucky if each season the season ticket money covers the repayments etc to these crooks nevermind have a transfer kitty. can't ever see an ibrox outfit ever realistically challenge Celtic with all these leeches surrounding the club because there won't be enough cash for the squad needed to do it.

I can tell you that a donation was made to the Prince and Pricess of Wales Hospice on the Clydeside in respect of the Rangers, Dundee Utd game.

24 Apr 2013 21:39:32
If they did donate the money from that game I'm sure we would have had some ex-gers posing with a big cheque then the usual p!sh about super casino's and warchests flung in to keep the fans interested, we havnt so I for one doubt they even donated a quid!

23 Apr 2013 09:53:37
I had the chance to go to my first game this season on Saturday as I live abroad and to say I got a shock is putting it lightly. First on the way to the game the radio let's me know that at our very important board meeting after Charles greens departure our glorious chairman malky Murray can't make it as its his wife's birthday!

Then getting to the game itself, what a joke! We can't pass, we can't tackle, there's no invention, we're outfought, we're not fit, the team is a disgrace. Now just because we're in the 3rd division doesn't mean we have to play at that level, I'm not saying we should be playing like Barcelona but we are getting outplayed by every team this season and that's just not good enough and it's down to one tv presenter/actor/manager Super Duper Ally! Charles Green and Craig white are the best things that have ever happened to nice guy coisty because no matter how pathetic he is and how far back he takes our club his best pals in the media won't say a thing instead thanking him for sticking around!

Then we get to the blue order, having a great time all game laughing and joking then we go 2-1 down and who's fault is it? McCoist? Green? No of course not it was who got the abuse for poor performance. Total joke as soon as the chips are down these people can think of nothing else but this bile!

We are a third division club in every sense and my club needs cleansed from top to bottom if we ever have a chance to have a club and a team we can all be proud of. I think we are in for a shock in division 2 next season with these guys in charge, management and team I'd say we'll struggle big time!

You say we have been outplayed by every tean we are twenty odd points ahead now i'm not saying mcCoist is the answer but we started off with six players for pre season threw a squad together in six weeks (and I wonder how many of these guys were mcCoists signings and how many were green and his cohorts signings ) anyway he could not change his squad in anyway no signings could be made so we play young boys I go to every home game and some away games and these boys are just not strong enough they are just boys I am willing to give mcCoist a chance no other manager in the history of rangers has had the restrictions placed on him that he has so again i'm not saying i'm happy with the state of play but cut him some slack there are far more important things to worry about right now and we seem to just sit on our arses fingers crossed and thing it won't happen to us we are in deep deep s**** right now we need to demand to see who owns what we might not even own our ground or training facility for god sake some of you need to wake up to the dangers we are in let's get our club rid of these vultures picking away at our club we will see what the football side brings then there might not even be a transfer fund if all is frozen by the courts till this mess is sorted out we are a third division side we need to rebuild

Good points and I agree with them all. I have to say in defence of the Blue Order and Union Bears (I know you never mentioned the UBs) there would be no atmosphere t all if it wasn't for these guys. At times their banter is funny but there are issues with some chants at times which I believe belong to a distant era. No idea what they were singing at the weekend as I refuse to go back until we have honestly, stability and a clear way forward. As for Ally, I'm still reluctant to buy into the idea that he's a mercenary but he has went down in my estimation. As for his managerial nous, there is no doubt he's truly hopeless. I feel like I'm watching a family member dying just now and I have found myself contemplating life without Rangers. Unthinkable, I know but naive to think it's not a possibility. Really not sure what to do to stop this happening but I do know blind hatred and finger pointing is helping nobody.

@1 haha there's the old pre season coming up again! You had more than 6 players ya trumpet! May not have been first team regulars but I can assure you they are players who are still earning more than the average player from opposition teams your NEW club were struggling against!

I'm not saying its all Ally's fault, but how many chances can he get? let's not forget about last season we were 15 points clear and what happened? He blew it. These players seem to have no idea what to do or how to play and its the managements responsibility to train and coach them and I just don't see that happening. We can't keep saying oh poor ally and all that he's had to put up with, we should all be thanking him. let's not forget he is being paid pretty well in his job so he's not doing us a favour. This is the manager that after failing to win another game a few weeks ago he says well at least we've kept 3 clean sheets in a row! That is the standards that he strives for. Clean sheets against part time clubs. I know the club is on a state and its not his fault but he should stick his managers duties and not bother with who's signing his cheque each week because as we've seen Ally will kiss anyone's arse to keep his job, Craig or Charles it didn't matter to Ally!

@1) Its like banging your head against a brink wall with Rangers fans like you, you know that. Second biggest wage budget in scottish football against part-time players on £50-£100 a week. How can you defend us failing to win nearly a dozen games in the 4th tier this season. Listen son, we are all disappointed Coisty hasn't got it as a manager, it would have been magic if he had the managerial talent to lead us for years to come but come on mate, if you can't see it there must be something wrong. Even if I was to be lenient and say on the away pitches against physical, stuffy opposition its understandable we aren't winning them all but seriously I watched Annan athletic knocking the ball out from the back, goalkeeper to full backs right up the park for 90 mins against us AT IBROX a few weeks ago FFS. Open your eyes there are no valid excuses. The sooner you realise that and get on board with us in telling him its not good enough we might jolt him into some kind of angry response that might in turn jolt the players. Either that or he will do the honourable thing a step down. Yout right there are bigger worries just now surrounding the club, but on the subect of the management your way off.

@

The first part of your last sentence is the most important part right now. Forget about on field issues, far far more important things in pipeline.

23 Apr 2013 09:02:25
At the risk of sounding thick could someone please list what investigations are ongoing presently, by whom and each potential outcome. I have completely lost the plot?! Confused.