Rangers Banter Archive February 21 2012

21 Feb 2012 23:24:31
so if he gives us the shares ,he gives us the debt

if he keeps the club he can do what he likes with it

thanks mr Murray

Like he said IF he remains the main shareholder which he wont so that was a BS statement to try to get us off his back. They to quote Ally was just insulting. He maybe right about admin being inevitable but he shouldn't have lied to our faces if he wanted us to back him.

21 Feb 2012 22:53:48
OCTOPUS PRESS STATEMENT ON TICKETUS
17 February 2012
Octopus Investments would like to clarify the position of Ticketus with regard to the current Glasgow Rangers coverage.
Ticketus is one of the many entities into which Octopus Protected EIS invests. Ticketus has purchased tickets for Glasgow Rangers games for a number of seasons in advance, as it has done for a number of years previously with the club.
Ticketus does not lend money; Ticketus is the owner of assets - the tickets. Octopus is continuing to work with the administrators and Glasgow Rangers on this matter.


Octopus Investments Ltd is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority. Terms and Conditions of use. ©2012 Octopus Investments Ltd. All rights reserved.

Null and void, as there is no team by the name of " Glasgow Rangers "...... Rangers fc of Glasgow.

21 Feb 2012 22:45:14
Craig whyte to step down as chairman :) probz because hea beein dound out for the conman that he is

21 Feb 2012 22:29:40
Can I just say after reading whytes statement I think he is getting a hard time. He was the only one willing to attempt to save our club when murray knew exactly what was coming. He is the coward who walked away and left us in this mess. I genuinely believe whytes intentions were good but hmrc have screwed us big time. We would've went into administration regardless who was at the club. This is a long term problem which has landed on whyte who had a plan which has backfired big time. U can't seriously believe he did this intentionally to screw us and make a few quid? I mean his life isnt worth living now...
Keep believing guys!

Ha. This was the plan all along. Admin, clear debts and off. Then we start next season, new owner, new team.

Im sorry mr whyte youve burnt ur bridges so get off this page

After initially believing whyte had good intentions surely no one can now believe he had the interests of the club at heart. He is not a credible chairman. Any of us could have
Done the same as him. He's a toerag

Yeh, how can he live with himself, making some decent money, sharing some with his pals and returning to his place in Monaco, probably with a good profit, his life is not worth living. Admittedly he won't visit Ibrox again but how often has he done that in the past 15 years? Don't waste your sympathy with Mr Whyte, I am sure he will be able to live with himself, no problem!

A cant beleive ure saying he is getting a hard time he has put us in a big mess so wake up an smell the coffee the man is a fraud he has practly stolen our money how would u like it if a came an stole your money am sure u wouldnt thats what he has done to rangers supporters

21 Feb 2012 22:20:08
Just to confirm the Celtic Plc company history:
Incorporation Date 12/04/1897
Company Number SC003487
Previous Name THE CELTIC FOOTBALL AND ATHLETIC COMPANY LIMITED
Date of Change 15/12/1994

So erm, no, no argument re history of the one club continuously trading with a change of name only.

Nevis

Yaaaaawn thanks for that conformation "Ben" I'll sleep better tonight. PaulRFC

Kentucky Fried Chicken changed their name to KFC. Same company. Same product. And like Celtic paid their bills. Are you to tell me The Colonel is no longer KFC's founder?

GoldCoastBhoy

I can't see the " Runners Up " bit, did they miss that out, or is your post a misprint !!? AGer63

21 Feb 2012 21:56:20
matt mckay and bedoya have left rangers. what a waste of money. whats wrong with our scouting system!

Were does it say bodoya has left

Where has that been confirmed? Did we get money for them?

21 Feb 2012 21:45:56
Ed, with it now coming out that Whyte used the Ticketus money to pay off the £18m debt does that now mean that Whyte is not the preferred creditor as his company Wavetower did not pay off the debt?

His only outlay is £1 so can the administrators now sell the club from under him or will he retain the 85% in shares?

The more I read & the more revelations that comeout the more confused I get!

The Pilot! {Ed001's Note - only if he defaults on the payment terms on the loan, otherwise the money he received is his. Does anyone know who owns Ticketus? Their involvement is strange, I don't understand why they would willingly loan so much money ahead of a deal's completion.}

Ticketus are owned by Octopus. {Ed001's Note - and who owns Octupus?}

Craig Whyte's dog back in Monaco?

The Pilot!

Am with you ed on this one why would ticketus give this sort of money out when they knew that rangers were in trouble with hmrc and were talking over the last 2 years of going into admin it all seams odd to me

ED
The ticketus set up is a "capital preservation" EIS fund. They buy season tickets from clubs then take the firs x amount of sales at a small mark-up.
The 20,000,000 would represent 25,000 ticket books at £800. I dont know if that seems high, probably is.
But anyway, i deal with the parent of each Ticketus EIS and they are a very reputable EIS provider who do this type of deal with loads of clubs. Everyone wins (usually) the first 25,000 sales at a club of Rangers size are usually very guaranteed and they do take guarantees all over the place. The club get the money early and everyone wins.
Nevis {Ed001's Note - but this wasn't dealing with a club on a good footing. This was a deal with a club on the verge of collapse.}

Ed maybe because our chairman at the time "sir" David Murray was involved... Just a thought... But it does now seem anyone who showed the slightest interest in rangers was rebuffed by Murray... Wonder why? PaulRFC {Ed001's Note - I have been saying for a while he has to shoulder the massive majority of the blame for the problems. Even if he was doing it for the right reasons, he was doing the wrong thing for the club. But that is the problem with sugar daddys rather than responsible ownership, the minute the money dries up, it all goes to pot.}

The structure of what Craig Whyte did with Ticketus is not unusual where a holding company are using the assets of a company they are purchasing to raise finance to pay of bank debt for that company.

I'd imagine, although it sticks in the gut, that what he has done is perfectly above board and as such his floating charge will stand. After all this is his area of expertise and what his plan was all along, so why would he not do it in such a way that he is protected. {Ed001's Note - I agree, the only unusual thing about it is that he was able to do it at such a time, due to the fact financial agencies are just not loaning out money. Also that the money was loaned against a company on the verge of administration's future sales.}

Ed
Totally agree, its odd but (Celtic supporter saying this) i would never have in a million years doubted the sales of say 20-30k season books at ibrox.
I know that Octopus were very quick to inform potential clients of Craig Whytes statement, to back up there system of taking many guarantees on a deal.
The whole thing is really odd to me and i work with this stuff!
Nevis {Ed001's Note - in any other situation it wouldn't have raised any eyebrows, but this is a club on its knees they were loaning to. In a time of financial crisis, it is just odd.}

21 Feb 2012 21:31:27
Don't know what my fellow bears think but since the years of big eck the club has been on a downward trajectory. Season after season a procession of overpaid forgeiners have been paraded infront of us. Thank god for sir Walter of smith leading us to titles when by rights we should have been on our knees.

Now we are on our knees and after watching on Saturday with a team having no craft or guile or even passion for that matter a clear out is much required. Hopefully the one good thing to come from this could be a team of bears playing for the jersey and showing passion in the process.

Don't get me wrong I would love to keep the history, and hope we can carry on. I think we have to just set our sights a little lower and build a team and accept that for 2 or 3 seasons we may not be challenging, after all football has change and with it so must attitudes.

Oranjeboom

21 Feb 2012 21:20:30
Just seen chelsea not good score,maybe AVB n mccoist need to make sure it was a managers course they were on,iam sure they in rong classroom

Fks sake gee mccoist a break hes bn left way a reserve squad n the guys doin his best hes also one of us n we need to stick together

Who cares about Chelsea?
Larky Bear

Didn't have a reserve squad when Celtic clawed back a 15 point lead and then went 4 points ahead.

Ally is going to be hailed as some sort of hero, when in fcat he is a very poor manager.

21 Feb 2012 21:08:59
Whyte will now be looking at how he can benefit financially from his involvement with Rangers.

The initial noises he is making sound as though he is intending on moving on, although we know he is not to be trusted in what he says.

He will see his floating charge in the sum of £18m over Rangers assets as his trump card.

The liekelihood is that he will want an investor to buy him out. Given the hostility he knows he now faces, he'd probably accept £10m to walk away.

If not he could end up making life very difficult for a club wanting to come out of administration.

Although we have all these investigations going on, even if there are found to be wrongdoings, any resistance from Whyte could see matters drag out for months or even years in the Courts, making life virtually impossible for Rangers to function and virtually impossible to attract investment.

Whyte may even try to strike a bargain to get ownership of Ibrox as payment for walking away quietly and quickly.

One thing is for sure, he is not going to walk away quietly, unless he benefits to the tune of many millions from his paltry investment of £1.

Does this mean that he isnt the principle creditor ?

No, he is the principle creditor, that is what gives him the power to structure a deal where he walks away with a healthy cash pay off or indeed owning Ibrox.

21 Feb 2012 20:27:27
I can not believe anyone would believe a word that comes out of Craig Whyte's mouth.

Did You uses ticketus money to buy rangers CW No : Truth yes he did
Do you owe HMRC £5M CW No : Truth £9M
What are you going to invest in rangers squad CW £5M a yesr : Truth Zero

CW I gave ticketus personal and corporate guarantees for £27.5M mmm well as you own rangers wonder where the corporate guarantees come from.

You wish to gift your share to the rangers fans if and IF rangers come through this so you will gift to the fans of the club you love 85% ownership of a club in massive debt (which they will be if they come out of administration without liquidation) and make them libel for it - come on

Before I am accused of being a fan of another team i.e Celtic. I am not a rangers, celtic or Football fan, I follow the egg chucking game but am following the Rangers story as Scotsman interested in the biggest news story in our country for many years

Really mate you chuck eggs? Do they break?

21 Feb 2012 20:21:23
I wait to hear you all apologise to the Bbc and the daily record for telling the truth about whyte while you all buried yor heads in the sand but I won't hold my breath. They showed whyte for what he is! Also you bett start

21 Feb 2012 20:08:30
If rangers were in a good state money wise would mccoist still be choice of manager?

Yes he would ,
are you trying to start a no he shouldn't
Thread ? Ya trumpet

Naw coz he aint got a clue he shd be 1st 1 to go


TB

Simple answer, no!!

If Celtic could of afforded a decent manager when mobray left would Lennon be the manager now?

No Walter smith would still be manager.... But it's that word "IF".... If ma gran had baws shed be ma grandad .... So pointless question really... PaulRFC

If celtic were in a good money wise would the ginge be in charge.
no titles yet

Neil lennons in the job as he`s been around paradise along time knew alot about the way the club is run and is celtic through and through,he was a risk but for us a risk that has come off as he has the all his players playing for him(very well respected all round paradise, LEGEND!)

21 Feb 2012 19:44:55
The real VILLAIN in this whole sorry mess is MARTIN ONEIL, had he not been so bloody successful then Mr Murray would not have gone Bonkers with the cash, OR! had John Barnes not been such a DISATER Martin Oneil wouldnt have arrived :P

There is sometimes not a truer word spoken in jest.

Rangers were initially advised on the use of EBTs in 1998 but decided not to use them.

Following Martin O'Neil coming into Celtic and beating Rangers 6 - 2 at Parkhead, Rangers then decided to embark on using EBTs.

Murray's ego was at the route of the financial problems Rangers have suffered.

Your spot on Murrays ego was the problem,to be honest even Celtic in this period were splashing the cash as well and debts rose to 33 million due to transfers and wages, difference was they realised it was unsustainable and pulled back, thus resulting in thier present policy, reducing fees, wages as well as debts, buying younger players to sell on later for a profit and investing back in the club, when Rangers recover eventually, as I am sure they will this model must be set in place and as fans of either celtic or rangers we have to accept this is where we are due to lack of revenue.

Are you guys for real!! Blame everyone else but yourselves. Head in the sand.

21 Feb 2012 19:34:49
Craig whyte has stated his desire to stand down once the club comes out of administration well i would say he doing this because he knows he will not be alowed to run a club again and he is just geting in there first before he is barred from the sfa ect

21 Feb 2012 19:06:37
Pacific shelf 595 ltd. this company wasas incorporated on 11th oct 1994 with a registered office in edinburgh. The company then changed it,s name to The celtic football and Atheetic company and currently trades as Celtic Football Club. Maybe we should strip all titles and european cups that the former company won. Maybe shut them up for a while

Wtf are you on about??

yeh, because changing a clubs name when it changes from a limited company to a plc means they should be stripped of titles.....f@ckin balloon!


taco

FFS you eventually get your head out the sand ( a bit) and now your clutching at straws typical rangers fans lash out at everybody else when things are not going your way. Time you took another valium I
think

Celtic are known as Celtic PLC. If you look at Companies House you will see Celtic PLC, company number SC003487 were incorporated on 12 April 1897. They changed their name to Celtic PLC from The Celtic Football & Athletic Company Limited on 15 December 1994.

The information you refer to relates to the process Celtic had to go through to change it's staus to a PLC.

Celtic have a continuous history from the outset.

You'd better toddle of now and try to find some other nonsense to dig up.

Whats an atheetic company? you a wee bit excited?.....green jhedi

I've been trying to post that for a while with no success. I thought for a min it was Ed007 that run this page lol. Celtic football club plc are 18yr old. Should Celtic really be wearing that star above the badge that shouldn't be there either. The badge should say 1994-2012 lmao. {Ed001's Note - they changed their name, they are still the same company.}

Having you been reading rangers media. Henke7.

Pacific Shelf 595 Limited F.C.
In it's short history since 1994 they have won 7 titles, 6 scottish cups and 5 league cups. Certainly looking like taking the 2011/2012 SPL Chshp.
Iam legend

When my friend married his wife she was 24 and she changed her name does that mean she is a different person and is only 2 years old davie c

21 Feb 2012 19:00:29
Surely, the fans need to buy tickets at the gate rather than season tickets. That means the ticketus company won't get money back from fans, there for holding Craig the crook responsible for repaying all the money?

Scooby

Ah Scooby, another devious thinker. You must come from the Craig Whyte school of business deals.

And by the way, don't believe for a minute Whyte has given any gaurantees for this deal, despite what he says. He would need to have net cash and or assest of £27m to do so, which he has not.

@ Scooby; you need to wait and see what swiss tony has used as security,this guy is a loose cannon,it could be anything........green jhedi

21 Feb 2012 18:51:56
Ed001 - All the best
Iam Legend. {Ed001's Note - cheers mate, there is nothing better in life than time with the kids.}

21 Feb 2012 18:33:41
So the administrators have found out that £18m of the £24m went straight to Lloyds. But they do not know where the remaining £6m has went.

Funny how david Murray was reportedly set to get £6m back in the sale of the club.

Can guarantee this is where the £6m has went.

It was £20.33m NET + £4.07m VAT.
The £4.07M should have went to HMRC. Will be interesting to see if it did.

The deal (£20 Million) was subject to VAT which by my reckoning is £4 Million. Thats where the £4 mill has went. Still short of £2mill.

That's what I just posted. Sorry didn't see this before! I'm sure I heard that at the time, but ever since its been "£1".
David Murray must know more, you don't just have a look at a bank statement and take a pound and say "good luck!"

GoldCoastBhoy

21 Feb 2012 18:11:53
Ed, any info on the supporters trust opening a bank account for the fans to donate to? If this is the case and something is in place is it not everyone's duty to spread the word?

Also, how many fans would sign up to pay £5(minimum) per month to the account by direct debit? 50,000 fans paying £5 = £250,000 per month.

We hold the funds and decide what happens with the money.

The Pilot! {Ed001's Note - I believe the details are on their Facebook page, but I don't have FB to check for myself.}

Hah. bit late now my person chums. may as well set fire to your money. you had a chance to buy your club and raised the grand sum of one million in the share offering. christ. loyal, follow, watp. you were warned, and it was us that told you. and still there are whyte supporters amongst you, please send your children to school.

21 Feb 2012 18:06:33
Could someone please tell me why whyte put £250,000 a couple of days before admin into bandstead athletic. Ed you got any idea ,or even if its true, very strange don't you agree. {Ed001's Note - seems like exactly the same thing Peter Ridsdale did at Leeds and Bradford, just before they went into admin. Except he paid it into his personal accounts in that case.}

Can you verify the story ed read in papers but you know what papers are like so any truth? {Ed001's Note - apparently it is true, difficult to be 100% certain though. The fact that no denials have come out backs up the likelihood of it being true too.}

21 Feb 2012 18:05:02
I was not barred as a director - yes you were
I did not use the ticketus money to buy the club - yes you did

What a lying bar steward, the charlatan must never be allowed in Ibrox again. There is not a true word come out of this mans mouth. What a thoroughly disreputable character.

Bring on the blue knights, one man must never own Rangers again!

Not one word of truth has come out of Whyte's mouth since he basically stole our club using the fans money.
David Murray must have known that this was the plan to pay off Lloyds. Murray must have seen this as a quick way to get the bank off his back.
Whyte is a crook and a bare faced liar. But Murray has to take his share of the blame.

So does this mean his im stepping down in the statement is another porkie pie

i think what i would be asking is
can he still own the club even if he steps down as chairman .
over to you Ed

Lubo25 {Ed001's Note - yes he can.}

21 Feb 2012 17:53:13
I think all this goings on at ibrox designed to put pressure on hmrc to compromise, to many strange things happening even this £250,000 given to that wee club in England two days before admin, seems like a high table game of poker

How would that put pressure on HMRC to compromise?

Not gonna work

This is a total nightmare

Anybody else thinking just who the f*** Whyte is fronting for ? the tosser doesnt have 2 happenys to rub together. Ellis is the common denominator remember he went in first bidding on behalf of some Russian mob

21 Feb 2012 17:48:48
Whyte's Ticketus real was for 100,000 season books over 4 years. That's 25,000 season books a season for 4 years that Rangers will get no income from.

Not necessarily depends on the legal sides of it, is Whyte liable for it? we don't know that

Whyte saying its for 3years sounds more like it going by your sums 25,000per year @lets say £400 =£30 million.agree he is a sneaky wee bar steward but where moneys concerned no even he would give Tiketus a50% return on there money.

It was over 3 years , tedbear

21 Feb 2012 17:29:17
Ed a bit of good news Whyte stepping down once crisis is over well he has done the damage he can go anytime ... Kenny the prod a happy man

21 Feb 2012 17:25:23
when this is all over Murray Park should be renamed, all season ticket holders and share holders should hold a ballot to find a name the most popular 3 names should then be put forward for selection, David Murray does not deserve the honour of having Murray Park named after him, we could name it after somebody who deserves it. a true rangers legend or one of the founders of the club

Trouble is that he owns Murray Park.

John greig training ground he was treated like s**t

Aye it should be named wattle smith football academy. Watp

HMRC park.artybhoy

I think you might find it's called "murray park luxury homes"

Once Swiss Toni has finished his Masterplan Murray Park will be renamed.

More than likely have a new housing estate with
Ostrich way
Ostrich road
Ostrich place
Ostrich street

Lubo25

The walter smith pack the defence academy?....green jhedi

Rangers own Murray Park, its an asset of the club,not his. Administrators stated as such. The same applies to the stadium.

Must be called Pitz.

Jungle Bhoy.

21 Feb 2012 17:19:20
Whyte admits the ticketus money paid off Lloyds

He claims he'll give serious consideration to gifting a large proportion of his shares to supporters groups if he remains in control post administration.

No thanks Craig. Just give up your shares, start telling the truth on what has happened to the money and leave.

Sir David how do you fancy telling us why you sold to this guy?

Ed - congrat and thank you for keeping this site up to speed during this traumatic period for the club. {Ed001's Note - struggling today, hard work with the little 'un wanting to talk about her day and try and keep the sites ticking over!}

21 Feb 2012 17:13:30
When is Lafferty due back ED?

Do you not think it would make sense to get rid of Healy to free up money and Celik, Lafferty and McCulloch will do us till the end of the season. {Ed001's Note - he should be due back any time now.}

Lafferty will not play again. If he does Rangers have to pay £250k to Burnley.

We owe burnley money if he plays a couple more games so he might not even play

21 Feb 2012 17:08:51
Any fan now will boycott any future game painfull as it is after latest the best thing is to fold and start again,he robbed our season book money n left us either go or dont,please dont give whyte another penny

21 Feb 2012 17:05:44
craig whyte promises to walk away from rangers when they are out of admin,

source breaking news on ssn,

A "promise"! Why should we beleive this one?

21 Feb 2012 16:52:25
fellow fans read craig whytes statement on stv if u ask me its more lies from him this is a quote from him at the bottom ‘But I am a Rangers fan, and, like other Rangers fans I don’t do walking way [sic]. well where was he at the killie game cause thats walking away

21 Feb 2012 16:29:17
I think we are all forgetting something here (you timothy's as well)
An EBT is not illegal and they are still very much in use.
Rangers done what Arsenal and other clubs were doing at the time, but the EBT seems (According to HMRC)not to have been set up properly, this has been challenged by Rangers, and even up until NOW Rangers are being advised that they are still favourites to WIN that case, the tax man wasn't cheated, but is trying to say he was, which is being argued....Rangers did not deliberately defraud the revenue, if they did, why would it take 10 years to come to light, and MARTIN BAIN up until he left was using an EBT, so would he have done that if he knew it was illegal?..no!

EBT
The Employee Benefit Trust has been a popular alternative to the Umbrella Company for many years. Hundreds if not thousands of self employed contractors and other high net worth professionals (such as those in the creative arts) have taken advantage of the higher rates of pay that can be achieved via the use of an Employee Benefit Trust payroll solution. Where as a typical Umbrella Company gives a gross to net contract ratio of around 65% many EBT solutions offer a return of up to 85%. The opportunity to keep an extra 20% of YOUR pay has been seen as a massive bonus to high earners.

A prime example of the veritable "clutching at straw's"

Well said

No one is forgetting anything. It is a well accepted fact that EBTs were legal up until 2010.

The trouble is that Rangers were not operating them as per the advice they received, they operated them in a different manner and that is why HMRC have been able to challenge them.

Despite what you are claiming, Rangers are not favourities to win the case. It is simply Rangers PR people spinning the line that Rangers are favourites.

How do you kno , tedbear

If rangers were favourites,why did murray offer a 13m settlement in january'11?....green jhedi

21 Feb 2012 15:40:30
just a few questions about this sfa investigation into craig whyte and what i means to rangers if anyone will know,

if he is found to have broken the rules and is not a fit and proper person to own a football club (heres hoping)

a) will he have his ownership of rangers removed.
and
b) does this give the club back to murrey or are the admin guys then tasked with finding ew owners for the club?

It's on Sky Sports News that Whyte is stepping down. Ger4ever

21 Feb 2012 15:28:00
rite guys i rarely post on here anymore for a few reasons..however wot i do wanna say is:54 titles, ibrox, auld firm wins,euro runs, greig,cooper,gough,mccall,durrant,mccoist,hately,gazza,laudrup etc...in the past our club has given us sooo much...time we repay the favour...bums on seats,voice on song,heart on sleeves let the peolpe know were more than just a football club and we will not go quietly into the night.
germinator

It was high time we started booting out the bigots as well but still hasnt happened - and on saturday they came to the fore again. Unforntunatley bigots hold season tickets.

Same as any supporter of any team should garlar07

21 Feb 2012 15:19:18
Ref: Billyboy helicopter sunday lasts a
lifetime.....
As a Rangers FC (IN ADMINISTRATION)
fan, you probably have not heard of
words like "good reputation" "integrity" but
if the Big Tax Case goes against your
club, your reputation and integrity will
be FOREVER stained as the club that
CHEATED it's way to trophies.
Hail hail Timalloy

At least we won't be labelled "the team that wins by default"

Timalloy gee it a by. cheated!!?? your at the windup pal. as a celtic fan you'll be used to making excuses and blaming others for your clubs failings.....your at it again with this whole rangers cheated their way to titles. YOUR TEAM JUST WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH!!! simple.
j1985

Hearsay Timalloy - not worth a p!sh.
Iam Legend

Timalloy i fail to see how we cheated - Murray funded the players we bought - albeit irresponsibly. We had the cash to buy the type of players we did - EBTs were legal up til a point. its only now hmrc has decided that they are illegal and are pursuing rangers. we didnt cheat - hmrc changed the rules. we paid the price for chasing the european dream. something smeltic wouldnt know about - being knocked out early in every competition.

chasing the dream

Sticks and stones

21 Feb 2012 14:50:55
Ed who decides on offers for rangers... Say there was more than one (wishful thinking) who decides what the best offer is? Is that doon to the admins {Ed001's Note - the administrators are now in charge and make all decisions.}

21 Feb 2012 14:21:35
The last 12 years have had some great memories but if we have cheated then as a fan I feel cheated, what does all my fellow bears feel, p.s. Celtic fans don't reply cause don't give a toss what u think. Ha.

Ebts good till 2010 we never cheated jsm

Utter pish so what yer saying is that the plumber who fitted my new central heating system has been done with a tax scam. I can now have my heating removed

EBTs were legal to 2010 IF USED CORRRECTLY. Rangers problem is that they used them INCORRECTLY.

To the above poster cheers mate did not know you as the judge on the tax case had the time to come on and confirm outcome. Now hop away back to your own site you are becoming boring

If the EBT's were, as a previous poster put it, 'USED INCORRECTLY' then surely the decision would have been clear cut and in our possession, and there would be no need for the delay. Therefore the perceived arrogance of timmy with a grudge is clearly misguided starting from an entrenched position. ger1952

21 Feb 2012 14:03:10
it says "willingness among a majority of his men to sacrifice what they can for the cause". i wonder what players are not in the majority, because thats the ones who can leave in my opinion, if players are not with us they are against us, these players make more than enough and a true rangers player who has the club in his heart would play for a cut price.. jsm

21 Feb 2012 13:40:15
Heard last night that when Whitty and Shagger signed their new deals, they weren't signed by Rangers but by the parent company which breaks 3rd party player ownership rules which could mean losing every single point earned since the new contracts were signed.
Normally I'd just dismiss this but the way things have went, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the next kick in the nuts for us!
Ed, any substance in this?

The Wanderer {Ed001's Note - nobody knows for sure, the administrators should be able to confirm or deny that rumour though.}

A rangers mate of mine told me this last night but never posted it as i thought it was mad n i would attract abuse.......hmmm.....green jhedi

21 Feb 2012 13:32:16
i dont think Rangers will complete their fixtures this season. goneski. look forward to playing the newly formed "Third Lanark Gretna Rangers Loyal Follow Blindy Whitey United" next year though. i might even get a game, just need a bit of ralgex on my knees and i think i am up for it. arbroath here i come, up them.

Wishful thinking, think you've had too much ice cream. ger1952

Arbroath are second division and heading for the first hopefully. Rangers will have to work their way up to the Red Lichties kinda level!
weetam1888

21 Feb 2012 13:27:53
The harsh reality is that an investor coming into Rangers is looking less and less likely, despite what the media are reporting and the prospect of liquidation is looking the likely outcome:

1. No investor will come into the club due to the uncertainly of the £49m+ debt from the Big Tax Case. This is highly likely to be found in HMRC's favour (despite reports in Scotland on Sunday), and even if Rangers were to win the case, an HMRC appeal would stretch any final decision by months, therefore preventing any investment.

2. If Rangers were to come out of administration the monies to Ticketus would have to be paid over the next 4 years, therefore reducing the amount of income the club have for operating. Not appealing to an investor.

3. The current level of debt it at least £9m to HMRC and then whatever other creditors there are. As the Ticketus deal was for a sale of goods and not a loan, the £24.4m includes VAT of £4.07m, and this will have to be added to the £9m.

4. The floating charge Craig Whyte has in the sum of £18m over Rangers assets is not attractive to any investor.

The current position at the club is that it is running out of cash to operate on a day to day basis. This was the position under Craig Whyte and there are no income streams to change this. The above situation will prevent any investor coming into the club in the short term, despite what the administrators are saying with regards to interested parties. An interested party then moving to an investor is one heck of a big jump.

The lack of cash to run the club and the lack of an investor coming into the club can only lead to one thing and that is liquidation.

With liquidation, the Big Tax case is written off, the £9m to HMRC + and other creditors is written of, and there is no liability to Ticketus to pay monies for future season ticket sales. Any investor is likely to have to pay Whyte off, pay a nominal amount to the administrators for assets (which is used by the administrator to pay creditors) and any other investment is then directly into the club.

Liquidation is by far the most realistic possibility just now for Rangers.

Dont forget two administrators @ £500 per hour with the meter running.........green jhedi

The harsh reality is that you my friend are another of the armchair experts that have infected this site. You dress up your own particular brand of mince with a tinge of respectability in the vain hope of compounding our misery. Please please please just give it a rest and go back to your World of Warcraft. Your level 50 elf must be missing you.
Blue Knows
PS When Rangers get sorted you can always fall back on the Refs/Conspiracy/Bigotry to make yourselves feel better.

Blue Knows - it is exactly this bury your head in the sand attitude that allowed Whyte such an easy ride to take the absolute p1sh out of Rangers.

There is nothing remotely constructive in your proposal Your argument is "I don't like what I'm hearing, so go away".

You were no doubt one of the band that thought administration would never happen. Well, wake up my friend, liquidation is on it's way.

If your going to respond, at least give some reasoned arguments if you don't agree with my original post.

Jedi if thats true they must be getting more than most of the first team

With liquidation, the Big Tax case is written off, the £9m to HMRC + and other creditors is written of

They are not written of. The company is wound up and all assets, Ibrox, Murray Park. Player contracts are sold. the money is then divided between the creditors. A new club would have no debt, but it would also have no assets (players or Ground). It is possible that a new co company could be formed by some one who bought Ibrox and or Murrey Park and or Various players. But that is likely to cost a minimum of 20 million probably more. Remember these assets are auctioned of to the highest bidder. If the liquidator does not sell to the highest bidder thy could be removed. So a new co would start with at least 20 million debt and have a limited income. The worrying thing is the TicketUs deal MIGHT be enforcable on any new co rangers.

David

Standard fees for an administrator.

David, the debt is written off, the company is wound up as you say and that means writing off the debt.

The administrator, and not Rangers would sell of the assets and repay creditors from the proceeds of the sales.

The only likely purchaser of Ibrox would be the newco as there are no other football clubs presently looking for a 50,000 capacity statement (unless of course Whyte takes ownershio of Ibrox due to the floating charge he holds). Murray Park is owned by Murray. Some players would be let go and some purchased from the administrator by the newco.

21 Feb 2012 12:57:37
here is the link bears, this confirms our fears....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2104025/Craig-Whyte-used-24m-Ticketus-money-pay-bank.html? jsm

21 Feb 2012 12:48:04
Three things Celtic fans regret saying:

1) We will easily win the league this season 2008/09
2) We will easily win the league this season 2009/10
3) We will easily win the league this season 2010/11

GCUK

One thing rangers will regret doing is not paying the taxman. All titles in last 11 years will be giving to Celtic. So here we go for 11 in a row. Bigirishmac. Here's the hook?

Three things Rangers fans regret saying:

1) We will easily win the league this season 2011/12.
2) We will not go into administration.
3) Lennon is going to get the sack.

Lennon will get the sack at some point. Also BigIrishmac shows how little you know Rangers have not been using EBTs for the last 11 years, or is that just what you want to believe.

Think you will find it was Celtic fans saying lemmon was going get the sack when 3-0 down at killie, Lennon is a piss poor manager beating no competition, any manager could win the league way Celtic this year.

So, weeirishpruc, can we expect your support in getting all Celtic won during Kellys ticket fiddling years...?
BB

If lennon is as bad a manager as you are saying how bad does that make mccoist then out of all cups and blew a 15 point lead what a manager

Big irish mac u will be back where u belong in no time SECOND best

BB, you keep making accusations against old Celtic board, I take it you can PROVE this with concrete evidence (not gossip/hearsay) and pray tell me when these directors were charged and found guilty by a COURT OF LAW? Timalloy

Dear Timalloy, in short, no. However the likes of big Davie Provan and Murdo McLoud have written of it, as have many news paper jurnos, without a hint of a writ being threatened by Mr Kelly & co. In fact there was more in the papers at the weekend. I can also remember Mr Kelly telling Sportscene presenters when it was brought up in a heated debate ,during the disgraceful threats to Lennon period, that he "had intention of commenting on that" to which (I think it was) Jim Traynor said "not a no then". With no reply. To be honest at the time it was going on I was not interested as, unlike the select band of Celtic minded men on here, my dislike for your club does NOT outway my love for mine...
Have a nice day
BB

Brilliant Tim, but wait, aren't the judges still deciding whether Rangers are actually guilty of any wrongdoing or does that not count when your lot have been calling us tax dodgers for well over a year. you know, all the tick-tock, pay the queen her money rubbish we keep hearing. Court of law indeed. duccablue

Timalloy - It is not the 'old board' as if you have discected them from your history. It's CFC. Everyone knew they operated 'estimated attendances' even some of your tim pals on here have acknowledged it.
Why you suddenly wanting proof and concrete evidence when all you post is hearsay and gossip?
They ran a tax scam. It's a banter site.
Iam Legend

Am loving every minute of this. Oh wait a statement from Craig WHYTE maybe it's about the big war chest. Lol. So basically what he has done is put you fatheads in to administration from spending a whole one pound of his own money. haha. Here 2 pound. Al turn it into a zoo. No need to go looking for Apes got 50,000 at ibrokes already. Bigirishmac. 7points +10 = 17. ;)

BIMac. - 18/09/11 - Rangers 4 v 2 Celtic and it only cost Craig White a £1 to pump you.
Iam Legend

21 Feb 2012 12:32:42
people on here need to stop spreading utter rubbish cause its getting hyped and talked about to much see when rangers getting taking over by a guy who has got money it doesnt mat and get behind super ally and the team ter cause we wioll still only be able to spend what our club makes in profit due to the new uefa rules and as for us going into liquidation thats never going to happen changing name and being put into a lower league is rubbish to rangers will always be playing at ibrox and in the top league thats a defo dont read papers and wait and see what happens thats the way to be

21 Feb 2012 12:14:57
Out of Europe, out of both Scottish cup, out of the league title race but hay look on the bright side your still in administration ;) bigirishmac

And still champions ;)

Aye, but looking on the bright side, at least were no Celtic eh?
BB

So you would rather be 17 points behind and been in administration going into liquidation because some guy bought your club for a pound, use your own money to pay the bank debt so he can walk away with a profit. So your better of?? No wonder Craig Whyte takes the piss out of yaz. Should hold on to the cleaning staff going to be alot of cobwebs in the trophy room for along time unless you win the 3rd division. Bigirishmac

Going into liquidation, no chance we will still be around it might take a while to clean up. we will be back stronger .. p.s we would rather be eh no but we dont have much choice do we, id rather get it sorted now than in another few years time came back, like a certain other team did ok never went to admin but went very close.. craig+babybear

Belter BB LoL
Bigirishgirlsblouse - remember CW was in charge when we humped you 4 v 2 at Ibrox this season.
Imagine that eh, it only cost him a pound to do it!
Iam Legend

Only cost him a pound aye but what has it cost you the supporter maybe your club garlar07

21 Feb 2012 11:35:24
jelly and ice cream? be done in no time but a helicopter sundae now that lasts forever lol
billyboy
WATP

Sorry BillyBhoy that will only last until liquidation then it means nothing.

Ian(For every £1 Celtic spend Rangers will pay their creditors 10p)

The day Scott McDonald scored that double was 1 of the best feelings ever

Ian(for every penny Dermott Demond gives you to spend...)
No son, that's part of your history to.
Iam legend.

Carlsberg don't do helicopter sundaes but McDonald,s certainly do.

Do macdonalds do admin cos im loving it garlar07

21 Feb 2012 11:27:16
would love to hear what this rat whyte has to say for himself prob more lies though

21 Feb 2012 10:53:36
how would it work.... who pays the tax man ... new owner ? administrators or craig whyte.... or will david murray accept responsibiliy and cough up the dough ?

Kin ell these flyin pigs might take sumbiddys eye oot hee haw

21 Feb 2012 09:14:49
Five things that Rangers Fc (IN ADMINISTRATION)
fans, wished they had not said.

1) Mind The Gap
2) Motherwell will finish second
3) Even with -10 we will still win SPL
4) In Ally we trust, he is a good tactician
5) We believe in Craig Whyte, he has a Plan

Feel free to add your own LOL Timalloy

Did Kris commons not say last season young, fitter and better?

How about May last year, Celtic can take Europe by storm, Emilio Izaguirre. Check it for yourself! Roll on your European campaign because despite all our troubles that will still give us something to laugh about.

Our Whyte Knight has just rode in.

Ian(For every £1 Celtic spend Rangers will pay their creditors 10p)

Am petty sure big gorgeous samararse has said every season you's will win the league! tell him tae button it

Cant possibly be any funnier than yours this year.malmo,maribor,bottom of their groups...green jhedi

I don't know what your talking about green Jedi just remember Sion beat yous fair and square yous didn't deserve to go through

campbell

To be far sion would have pumped them 2 sides we lost to, both them teams we lost to are garbage.

@ campbell; actually they didnt beat anybody FAIR n SQUARE,thats why they got tossed out.playing banned players isnt fair...........green jhedi

What about Santa has even been the title is over before Halloween

21 Feb 2012 08:45:26
Any Rangers share holder has the legal right to challenge the deal which Murray sell the club to whyte. Under corporate law which covers the terms of the agreement any shareholder who does not believe whyte has fulfilled his obligations can challange the deal in court.

That may be the case but even if Whyte has not fulfilled his obligations, the contract has no penalties that can be levelled on him.

You need to have a minimum shareholding of 10% to legally challenge any decisions made by either the majority shareholder / owner and/or the operating board. Furthermore those shares need to be Class "A" shares ...any other class of share is basically worthless with regards offering a say to the running or decision making of a business

Ah,another leggat reader......green jhedi

You must be a leggat reader also.

21 Feb 2012 08:25:28
Is this now how it looks? Craig whyte 'buys' gers for a quid. Borrows money from ticketus to repay lloyds. Then didn't pay tax, NI nor vat for 9 months using that money to cover running costs instead. That looks like he has only actually used a quid of his own money. You couldn't make it up.....

Maybe the quid was a loan from his maw? or pocket money? Mum can i buy Rangers please?

Blue Bear

Lol at above post made me smile .. craig+babybear

Not only that as rangers main creditor then he would be due the monies that he's spent back again or most of it.mg

21 Feb 2012 08:00:20
Morning ed everyday we pick up the papers their is more and more bad headlines White .Ellis . Betts and others they seemed to have lined all their pockets . Left the club with nothing we all want to know were the ticket money is . The 9 million tax money . Sdm should hang his head in shame he must have known about mr Whyte Paul murry alister johnstone
Martin Bain then a legend walks John greig 50 years service because of this peace of scum Whyte we need answers and fast if it was left to me Paul murry would be in place with his investors so angry about all this it's the rangers fans that is left to pick up the peaces kenny the prod

21 Feb 2012 04:01:04
Anyone know who the mad squad are that sit in the Broomloan front and are constantly bouncing about singing? I think it may be the boys who took over the Copeland Rear last season seats 0-20 roughly. We need more fans like them. Crazy fools are legendary!

Barry Barry

Blue order

21 Feb 2012 01:28:11
Ed this might be a stupid question but has anyone asked whyte where the money is? And can he actualy get away with not telling where it's gone {Ed001's Note - I am sure he will be questioned about any irregularities, it really depends on what he has done with it though. There are plenty of ways of hiding things, just ask Ken Bates at Leeds United, he has the club paying him rent for the training ground that he sold to himself!}

Lol fair point

Don't worry mate, theres no such thing as a stupid question.
Just stupid people!

21 Feb 2012 00:38:57
The £24.4m from Ticketus is an advance sale of future seasons ticket books and not a loan. As it is a sale of goods the £24.4m includes £4.07m VAT which should have been paid to HMRC.

The likeliehood is that this has not been paid and the current HMRC debt of £9m will increase to £13.07m.

I have no doubt that although the money was paid into Whyte's solicitors client account the contract will be between Rangers and Ticketus and therefore Rangers will be liable for payment from the future sales to Ticketus. It is common in commercial deals for monies to be paid into different bank accounts.

As it is a sale of goods that has alreday taken place then it is not a debt and cannot be included in any CVA.

I'm not sure if Rangers will be liable for this debt, as the transaction went through in April, almost one month before the takeover. So it may be that this is down to Craig Whyte.
BigGordi

20 Feb 2012 23:58:56
Daily Mail running story on Whyte using the ticketus money to pay off Lloyds.

No surprises on this though it is good news there is now enough evidence for the mainstream press to commit this to print.

Whytes position untenable once this is proven. Question is though what next for Rangers? It will not be straightforward to track down the funds, with introduction fees/ commissions paid (according to rumours I've heard) to other CW companies on the ticketus money. Need to know what security ticketus have - you don't pay out £24m without any.

Will this now mean Whyte's position as preferred creditor is null and void?

Exactly what I was thinking - i was thinking that because he had access to the money (when he wasnt owner) - this inturn makes the ticketus deal void. - not sure though.

unless murray is in on it to


ryanrfc