Rangers Banter Archive May 16 2013

 

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16 May 2013 20:38:12
A journey begins with one small step so as promised I have contacted the RST. When I get a reply I'll post it on here. My email to them is below:

I am a Rangers supporter, season ticket holder and follower of Rangers forums. My wife is a Proud Pompey supporter and member of Clan Pompey (The Scottish Pompey supporters club). Right now she is rightly proud of the efforts of all Pompey supporters as despite their years of difficulties; they have achieved their goal of fan ownership through the efforts of the PST and genuine fans.
As you may or may not be aware there seems to be a large section of our support who feel the RST do not represent the opinions of the majority of fans. This is not intended to be a slight on the RST, just a genuine question about how the RST feel about this?
Personally, I feel that the RST have an opportunity to play a major part in galvanizing the Rangers support and helping us move forward with the goal of supporter governance of our great club. My questions are these; are the RST ready and willing to use their already established model to take action? Are the RST willing to begin a process whereby they consult season ticket holders about their hopes for the future of our great club? And finally, what do the RST think about the proposal of some supporters to use season ticket money to buy shares as a way to achieve the fan ownership goal? This last question seems to be one that has been raised quite a lot recently and although I do not represent all season ticket holders I feel it is a proposal worth looking into. As you are already an established supporters association I feel you already have resources in place to begin a process of change; and in some ways it is your duty to use your established position gauge the fans feelings and present them to the club. So what do you think? are you READY to be the one the RANGERS SUPPORTERS TRUST?

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Baybear,

I think that RST and indeed RSA are two of the most inept, self serving, useless organisations to ever exist. I believe they are only interested in getting their names in the paper or get five minutes on the telly. Since the Whyte debacle, who they described as "impressive", they have really done nothing but harm to our club. Their insistence that season ticket prices be reduced whilst we were scrambling about for every penny was wrong. As usual the headlines appear to stand up for the fans, but as usual not thought out properly. I would gladly have paid a bit more in our time of need.
When the Whyte scandal broke with the tv they demanded a meeting. They asked him one question, "when will accounts be published" I can think of a hundred better questions, like why are you incapable of telling the truth.
Then we had the ill thought threats of boycotts when we should have been trying to make friends with SPL clubs who were to vote on our future.
Everything they do is inadequate, to compare these people with the Celtic fans who took to the streets to demand change is like chalk and cheese. That is what they should have done, demand answers that we are still waiting for.
Rangers fans badly need and deserve a supporters body that truely represents the fans view. These are not the people to do it.
Perhaps if we had that in place we would not be in the trouble we seem to still be in, some group that consists of business people, ordinary fans, people more interested in the truth than spin and rubbish.
As you will gather they will never have my support.

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Baybear- fantastic well done I am still writing my letter to them however I would encourage anyone who remotely agrees with us to cut, paste and copy your letter to the RST.
I can only hope all bears think there is some merit in this and unite behind us. or do they have a better idea!Eastbear

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An excellent letter Baybear, good points and very well put.
Now I don't wish to come across as being negative, because I genunely believe the ST idea would have worked, if it were not for three major hurdles.

1. Why invest more money at a time when we don't really know who or what we're investing in. It would be more prudent to put the ST money aside and pay on a game to game basis until things become a bit clearer.
2. There are still ongoing investigations which could potentially reverse part or, all of D&P's processes. If that does happen, then that' may well be the time for your plan of action to take place.
3. The danger is that starving the club of finances altogether, as some people are suggesting would be a bad move, and we could lose it all together, so caution is very much required.
That's why I would suggest the best plan is to pay at the gate for now.
Nevertheless I congratulate you on the good work and obvious thought that you have put into this project.
Well done.
P. O. B.

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@3 While I agree it is a nervous time to invest, I think that gives us the edge, no one is excepting the bears to unite, after all in the past we have not been good at buying shares! This could and should work to our advantage this time as the money men have only counted our ST money, not our ability to play the stock market, Time to bite back!Eastbear

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@1 great reply to baybear's post. One week before Craig Sh#te was announcing our club was possibly going into administration the "president" of the Rangers Assembly stated "the majority of Rangers Fans were still behind CW-wtf- no we were n't only the brain dead like him were. We do need some united truly representative fans group to be proactive/ decisive and lead the fight for our club. The quality of possible future directors and some current ones are not good enough and undeserving of our support. But we need a true rangers fan group to tell the "city players" et all "we are the club" without our support and hard earned cash you are nothing. We need this but can we deliver it or are we all including me hot air merchants?

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@ 1) agree wholeheartedly with your views the fans gave their money not really knowing to whom or where it was going. The board need to stop squabbling amongst themselves there are far to many bad vibes comming out of Ibrox at the moment at this time we need unity.
Bobby

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Baybear great read m8 but the RST represent a very small small percentage of Rangers fans. They have been operating for over 10 years and only have 2556 members. RST fit to start of a fan ownership scheme NEVER IN YOUR LIFE. It would require a new organistion headed by an Ex Player or Manager in high standing and with the backing of other prominent ex bears. The new organisation would be needed to rid all RST, RSA, RSA infighting as currently all 3 couldn't agree on the colour of s****.

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Troops- All valid points and taken on board. The point I was trying to make is this. The RST are only as good as the people who are members. We all spend a small fortune following our club so what's another £10 to join the RST thus forcing the trust to become a true representation of the fans? I am mearly looking at the RST as a vehicle for our cause. Granted this vehicle needs work but the advantage is they already have an infrastructure and resources in place. Rightly or wrongly they also seem to be granted airtime by the media and this can all be used to our advantage. Think the idea of an ex player heading this is a good shout although I feel interested parties should be agreed by the fans. Personally I can only judge a person by what I know of them and with that in mind my choice would be someone like Laudrup. At the very least £10 for a voice would confirm if the RST are truly up for representing the fans. If I know that myself and like minded fans have paid their £10 but there views are still not represented then that £10 has given me the truth about who to trust; A tenner well spent in my book. Remember an organisation is only as good as the sum of its parts. It's a small thing but I really feel we could change the RST into an effective outlet for our voices to be heard.
Baybear

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"The Rangers Supporters Trust has one simple aim: to encourage and facilitate supporters of Rangers FC to buy and hold share in the club in order to influence future decisions.

The future of Rangers must be in the hands of people who care about the club rather than just seeing it as a financial investment.
The long term aim of The Rangers Supporters Trust is to deliver ownership of the club to its loyal supporters"

Is this not what we all ultimately want? Let's hold them to this then by joining up and forcing change.
Alternatively we can keep bickering amoungst ourselves which will suit the moneymen down to the ground.
ONE VOICE, ONE GOAL, ONE NIL TO THE RANGERS SUPPORTERS!

Baybear

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The idea of an ex-player starting this ball rolling is one we could all get behind.

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Baybear some good points but surely the fans who are members of the rst already asking these questions so what are they doing nothing so why should the rest of us fans pay them money to do what any fan in their position as you say with access to the media would be doing I can't recall anything they have done to get answers they are shareholders after all

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@11 In all honesty mate f**k knows what there doing but I'm happy to loose a tenner to find out. I loose that on my football coupon every week after all.

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Baybear fair play mate but to call theirselves supporters trust is a f*kin joke they wer big with their mouth in December when it came to buying shares thru them so the fans could have a say and they've done nothin am pretty sure fans who purchased shares a think would hope the rst would be speaking up for them when I look across to the eastend the g b would be camped outside ther

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Thebear82- wouldn't dispute any of your points mate. On your analysis of the GB over the East end here's a mad idea? We could maybe start listening to some of them instead of denouncing their every word. After all, these supporters have experience of boardroom struggles albeit a slightly different scenario. There also seems to be a section of them who actually want us to get the finger out so we can resume our football rivalry. For the many who want us to die there are others who are also sick of listening to this never ending saga of ours. A minority maybe but they are out there. To be fair to some, they gave us plenty warning and we simply gave them the finger in response, me included on occasion.
To much blame, excuses and passing the buck. Acceptance of our own failings and affirmative action are long overdue.

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Baybear I agree but there are to many watp nobody likes us fans that just can't except its our problem nobody else's I just wish they all start taken notice instead of given it everybody with an opinion is a hater of our great club

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16 May 2013 20:01:54
rangers need to sign free transfers we don't need to spend money on signing's if we do the rangers board are clueluss. bring back novo ' and sign first & second division players. players that want to prove themselfs to the rangers supporters and manager

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Don't spend money on signings, just bring back old players with no sell-on value who'll want a decent wage?

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Even if we wanted to make money signings we can't until January, of course they will be free transfers.

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16 May 2013 19:15:05
Andy Webster unsure about future at Karma Struck Heart of Midlothian. Ally should bring him for a trial to see if he's still a bear WATP

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Great idea because he played so many games last time. Good god will this old player nonsense ever end

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Young up and coming players out of Murray Park. Nah let's see if Andy Webster's' still a bear' absolutely priceless!

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OP why is Hearts position karma? Your club's financial problem has absolutely nothing to do with them! In fact maybe your old clubs refusal to pay for Webster may be an issue that pushed hearts over the brink! But that wouldn't fit your obvious bitter little agenda! Glad your club is on the brink of falling over again and once again no one to blame but yourselves! But as history has shown your old club and new club have a problem with coming to terms with that statement don't they!

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@3 correction to rant - that should read "Wallace" and not walker, but who knows may be the exact same with walker!

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@3 rangers got Webster from Wigan and payed a fee so rangers are nothing to do with the state hearts are in so if you've got opinions make sure there right first

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@5) I'm sure they were meaning Lee Wallace. Rangers withheld the payment for him and in the end, even after the SFA demanded Rangers pay back ALL football debts Chucky done a deal to pay hearts less as he had them over a barrel. Shameless but if the SFA are going to sit there and let him do it, can you blame the guy.

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@6 no mate the money was to be paid this summer for Wallace so rangers helped hearts out by paying them early so it's only right that we payed them less

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16 May 2013 19:00:29
I hate to say, but why buy shares just now, when bdo can come out and null and void everything. wait for bdo. dave & hugh

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BDO can't nullify anything.

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@1 I think you will find they can and will almost certainly do so

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16 May 2013 17:50:19
I said months ago the power is with fans until directors have season ticket money. Then the power is with directors.

All fans need to do is. NOTHING.

Don't turn up, don't buy anything, change will happen. That's how Celtic fans got rid of the old board and got fergus McCann in. The ground was empty for games for two months. Complete boycott of all fans in protest to goings on.

Just do NOTHING.

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16 May 2013 21:22:21
They have that down to a bloody "T" bud lol

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16 May 2013 23:32:56
@1 sorry can yo not recall when ibrox was was empty just before your saviour SDM turned up and turned your beloved Rangers into a decent team where people wanted to watch. But then again look how that turned out who's laughing now.

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16 May 2013 15:18:53
THE Club can confirm receipt of a requisition for a General Meeting.


The Board is seeking clarity on the validity of this requisition and in the meantime the Directors wish to assure all fans that they are working tirelessly to keep the Club on the right course.

It is vital Rangers continues to progress and no matter how many distractions or obstacles are placed in our way, the Directors are determined to meet all challenges.

The most important people in all of this are the supporters, the team, the staff and the management.

Rangers' fans deserve to know that the Board will not be prevented from doing everything necessary to protect this Club for them.

Club website

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I wonder how long it took Jabba to write this, he must have been up all night with his speak and spell.

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Is this a good thing or another bad thing for Rangers? why are we being kept in the dark? but most importantly why aren't Walter Smith or Ally McCoist keeping us informed? they claim to be Rangers men yet have done nothing to substantiate this claim throughout this whole sorry affair, even if they really are Rangers men what purpose are they serving by their silence? we need definitive answers to specific questions, the ONLY reason McCoist is still in a job is because he is still considered by some to be "true blue" surely the time has come for him and Smith to put their own agenda to one side and tell us the truth so that we can decide whether to renew STs or not based on fact rather than hype.

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The board and Green know Walter and Ally have the fans backing, time they used this power.

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16 May 2013 13:56:11
If fans want to organise group-purchase of RFC shares, it makes sense to wait until the share price is at rock bottom. In some ways, we want the biggest scandal on the board of RFC as we can get, to bring the price down to something where we have a hope of securing overall control.

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260 quid x 38K season ticket holders is just sort of 10M quid - buys you 25% of shares in rangers at todays price. no need to wait, just get on with it

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The biggest scandal would result in the licence being revoked! Using the shares is the only way to gain some power. No season ticket sales, no merchandise until the true picture is known to the true fans.

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Yes but the money needs to be sitting in the bank waiting to go.

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Except hardly any shares have been traded since floatation, and the few that have were on a sell basis. Fans buying 10million of them would push the price through the stratosphere, enabling the crooks to cash in. King is negotiationg to buy shares privately, as is easdale.

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@1 - someone has to sell before you can buy 25% of the shares and the main shareholders are locked in until December by LSE rules

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You can use my account.

All the best
Charles

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The biggest flaw in this whole revolutionary plan is that 1 voice still has to be elected as the man in charge

Good luck with trying to get 38000 armchair managers to agree on who that should be

yes it may work at other clubs but that didn't happen overnight and certainly not at a time where opinions are so varied

any plan that has to be bundled together are flung over the finishing line is doomed to failure, as the SPL and the SFA have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt

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It needs to be a figurehead. An ex-player. Someone like Ferguson or Souness.

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16 May 2013 12:15:21
The resolutions proposed include the removal from the board of the club's chairman, Malcolm Murray, and the non-executive director, Philip Cartmell.

It is proposed that the pair be replaced by current shareholders James Easdale and Chris Morgan.
The proposal has been made in the name of Blue Pitch Holdings, who own just over 6% of the club's shares.

Morgan was one of Green's original investors and, in the list of his particulars, which would be registered should he become a club director, are companies such as RCJ Developers, Rhein Parkland, Neos Interactive, Albert Albela Corporation and Asia Investment Corporation

Who is the secretive Chris Morgan and why were fans not told he was behind blue pitch holdings by the media a year ago? He will shortly be the new chairman? The media linked blue pitch to a sheikh, another duping of the fans.

Malcolm seems a decent human being, competent businessman and lifelong gers man, Walter and ally see this. The rangers men are being rode rough shod over by the sharks.

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This is why we need to be vigilant.
Yet there is a growing band of people falling over themselves on here to get rid of WS and AM.
P. O. B.

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P. O. B- to be fair the majority of people are only questioning Allys ability as a football manager. As for Walter the silence is maybe making people put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5. Maybe he's at a critical point in the game and he can't give up his poker face. Who knows? All I know is all is not well at our club and naturally fans look to those they trust for answers. When none are forthcoming the speculation and paranoia set in. Can't blame folk for that though P. O. B

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Smith and McCoist are implicit in all of this, in Smiths case if only for his silence, why did he threaten to resign? don't we deserve to know what's going on before parting with our money in the middle of a recession? McCoist on the other hand has readily jumped on every corporate bandwagon, is blatantly inept at all aspects of management and is getting a massive wage while the club loses £1m a month, this according to McCoist is what's best for Rangers and apparently he is taking us forward! He is taking us for a ride and we cannot possibly move forward while he is at the club

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The msm did know about morgan but in trying to help the new club they were staying quiet and jabba is still drip feeding msm

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To be fair the majority of (dumb) people are only questioning (the £750K p. a. salary and 1m penny share holding) Ally's ability as a footbal manager.

Fixed that for you!

(Butcher at Caley is reputedly on £80K apparently btw. But to be fair, its not like he's even guaranteed European football yet. )

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Baybear.
I take your point regarding the paranoia but this is not the time for knee jerk reactions. We need to be united, keep our eyes and ears open, and bide our time. If WS and AM are frightening people away from Rangers then we really do have problems. However I do believe that the "Ally Assassins" are in the minority with most people prepared to give him at least one more season. At least I hope so.
And honestly if anyone is questioning the integrity of WS then they just don't know the man.

P. O. B.

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@5 I know what your getting at but your post actually reads that dumb people are questioning Ally's 750k salary? I take it that's not what you were meaning? Granted 750k plus bonuses for a 3rd/2nd divison manager is ridiculous. That said, he also worked for nothing for a significant period of time and that was the contract he was given. I do expect better of him as a Rangers legend but I'd like to see how many fans would turn down a 750k p. a wage packet if it was offered to them and told the club could afford it. That is not me trying to justify it, just trying to see it from a position of reality. There is also no doubt in my mind that he is inept as a football manager, as are his coaching staff.
P. O. B- All for uniting and ignoring detractors. Getting a bit tired of watching dross when I feel the current squad are capable of so much better in these divisions. I can only lay the blame for that at Allys door. He's not done much to justify even part of his grossly inflated salary IMO.

Baybear

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(7) I was suggesting that the majority of 'dumb' people were ONLY questioning his management credentials. Wherease the majority of smart people were also wondering whether the amount he is being paid is clouding his judgement in his so far unwavering support for the RIFC board and willingness to do their bidding for them.

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16 May 2013 12:17:38
If Green is forming a cabal to oust Malcolm Murray out surely that proves he should stay in place? When this whole sorry mess is revealed Murray will be seen as the only one actually concerned for the club.

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16 May 2013 09:15:26
RE the purchase of shares using ST money, Baybear and other sensible posters on here, is there away to take this forward, can we ask/influence the supporters groups to get on board and organise such a scheme or should we use the RST who have an existing scheme running.
If we used the RST then we would all become members making it one of the largest supporters share holding groups in the country! We by way of membership would also make it the most representative as we would all have a say and vote in the running of the organisation.
This needs people of influence within the supporters ranks to make this happen and I believe once the ball started rolling it would be impossible to stop. However to start the ball rolling we need the RST or the like to call it and advertise it, making it a fans issue that the Bears can rally behind in the knowledge they are not harming the club as we will pay as we go until we have control or at the very least a say! Eastbear

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What honestly makes you think the RST are capable of representing the fans at board level. They have 2556 members and have been running for about 10 years. Fan ownership of our club will never happen in my lifetime and not in the current economic crisis.

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@1 The point is become members and change the way it is run- You only pose problems perhaps instead of moans try solutions!Eastbear

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Green on tapes saying "i might have conned you stupid" to whyte - when whyte HAD to decide who he passed his shares to.

If green has conned whyte out of rfc assets, and admited this on tape - whyte has clear claim!!

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I don't think any of the current supporters' groups should be used.
Instead I think a new supporters group should be formed made up of all adult season ticket holders.
Season ticket holders are the people who put their money where there mouth is by paying up front on an annual basis without knowing what the end product is. These are the people who should become a voice.
The make up of this group would also include the members of the already existing supporters' groups as I would imagine they too would be season ticket holders. A nominal membership of £1, agree the aims and objectives and look to work with the board.
Remember season ticket holders are annual investors in the club and currently do not have a voice other than not to buy their season ticket.
The organisation of this is the main stumbling block due to numbers involved and eventually who would be running it. Am sure RFC would co operate in this initially by mail merging a notice to all season ticket holders.

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OP- In my opinion the RST have consistently failed us as a supposed representative of the Rangers support. That said, the point you make is valid in terms of growing the membership base of the RST and being able to elect spokespeople for the trust. The same could be said for any supporters group and in my opinion all Rangers supporters groups need to come together under the common goal of genuine fan representation for our club. At the moment things seem too fragmented with too many factions claiming to represent the fans and too much fan disagreement. Unfortunately this will take time, something we do not seem to have a great deal of in terms of the ST/share issue we've spoken about. I am not a member of any group but would be more than happy to be part of some group that I felt truly represented the fans. I propose that the RST seem as good a place to start as any. I would encourage you and all like minded fans to contact the RST with our thoughts and see what they think the way forward is. I have struggled to agree with their opinions or statements in the past but we could at least open dialogue with the RST. I believe that with enough demand they have the potential to grow into one of the largest fan groups in world football and would ultimately become a very different beast to the one you see today. If we don't give them the opportunity to truly represent us then we can't really complain. It would also make sense to view this already established supporters group as a job half done rather than waiting on someone to start something completely new from scratch. I'll be writing to them tonight, I'd encourage you all to do the same.

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@2, @1 is spot on, The RST, The RSA and all these other so called supporters groups couldn't agree on the colour of s****. An organistion that has been operating for 10 years and has 2556 members want to run the club! Aye right. If all Rangers fan stopped listening to and reading absolute s*** and lies in the paper that would be a start. There is no quick fix for the current predicament we are in. There is no Billionaires coming to bail us out.

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@2 moaning where? I asked what made OP think that an organisation that has been running for over 10 years and only has 2556 members can put that in place.

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It would be very possible for individual supporters buses to buy tranches of shares. If this happened on a big enough scale then when combined they would form a powerful force.

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@5 That's the way forward Baybear I will also be sending correspondence to all of the orgs to see who will rise to the challenge required. The reason for using RST is as you say the vehicle is already there although it needs a bloody good service!
@7 Sorry if you took the moaning bit as a direct dig, however I was talking in general as I believe we missed the boat the last time due to a split and an attitude of we cannae do it! However I feel we have been given another window of opportunity if the fans can unite behind a common goal and forget the weaknesses that were shown by fan groups in the past, if we join them we change them! EastBear

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16 May 2013 07:35:37
When is the new strip out?

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Nee strip? I think we have bigger problems to deal with mate. WW

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16 May 2013 03:21:40
safe to say that the #1 ingredient for success is a good manager. ferguson and even benitez today proved that. afraid to say that we are pretty well doomed to no success wi the currant clowns. and don't even bring up 3rd div. champs. stevie wonder could've won that as manager. maybe even a double wi the ramsden. just sayin. deecee

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9 out of 10 managers couldn't win the 3rd division

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I'm sure to be fair that 10/10 would given Rangers resources with internationalists, training facilities etc etc

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16 May 2013 13:58:05
9 out of 10 managers have a reputation in the game to worry about keeping that wouldn't entertain clubs at such a low level. maybe if you paid well over the odds and threw in some shares they maybe entertain it. ps. how come the youths at rangers ain't much kop? did mcdowall not have a successful time at Celtic?surely he learnt something-"the rainjurs way"doesn't work while "the Celtic way"does, or is that too hard to work out?lol

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100% correct it is how you mange people in any business I have my own company and have the right manager in place who knows how to get the best out of workforce and allocates the people with the right skill set to do the relevant task quickly and efficiently he could earn more basic pay elsewhere but if targets are met he gets a good bonus

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16 May 2013 15:53:50
1--- What a ludicrous thing to say or are you impressed that the manager of your local supermarket has a higher turnover than the local corner shop?

If Ally had even had a decent run in a cup or played football that was fun to watch then fine but the longer he is at Ibrox the further we slip behind Celtic. Are you happy with that?

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@1. 10 out of 10 managers on 1m a year would win it. 10 out of 10 managers on 1m a year would win the ramsdens cup. Ally is on 1m a year but he is no manager.

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15 May 2013 22:22:06
EGM tomorrow. Brian Stockbridge implicated in dealing with Whyte.

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16 May 2013 09:20:48
A sham and a scam to get STs sold in even bigger numbers than last year when it appears that the good guys and real Rangers men win the day. Everyone is in on this and they're taking the fans for mugs again.

You heard it first here.

Salmon Leap Bear

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Stockbridge, Green and Ahmad are three fingers on the same hand as is Malcolm Murray. This is all a ruse for the four of them to exit and leave little cash behind surely? The fifth finger being the ever useful Whyte.

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Of course hae is, now clean them all out, and walter and king should be leading this, tb

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I don't think so. EGMs require a lot more notice to shareholders surely.

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But where does Dave King fit into all this? Remember the story about him meeting Green, Ellis and Whyte in Switzerland last year when Green pretended to be on UEFA business but UEFA denied this.

Would have loved to be a fly on the wall for that one.

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No such thing as a EGM in UK company law - a general meeting can be called at any time if 10% of the voting shareholders call for it - if its a special resolution like sacking a director - 28 days notice required

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