Rangers Banter Archive September 12 2011

12 Sep 2011 22:29:36
Borrow, Borrow, we will borrow Millions
Anywhere, Everywhere we will Borrow On
Dundee, Hamilton, we'll even tap the Vatican
If we go to Dublin, we will Borrow On
For there wasnt a bank, like the Bank of Scotland
No, not one, and there never will be One
The bank knows all about our troubles
So we cannot pay till the day is Gone

Enjoy bears LOL Timalloy

Never off the Internet is one thing, but never off a RANGERS page... get a life pal

How very sad is this Timalloy, even Celtic fans must see how much of a sad loser he/she/it is lol. Embarrassing.

You lot spent loads on your huge squad,but you cant by bottle old bhoy thats why your looking up at us!

How much of a tw*t is this guy .. A mean he even knows all the words to rangers songs ( changing the words a little ) he's obessed he follows us more than his own s**tey team lol

12 Sep 2011 22:14:55
Just seen the BBC Website and it says Crfaig Whyte admits that "challenging times" lie ahead for Rangers. He also says There will always be a Rangers and they will always be at Ibrox. Sorry but that kind of statement hardly fills me with confidence!

Think its time to get more investment from those who rivalled the original bid!

Blue Bear

12 Sep 2011 21:02:26
Rumour is that, omg wait for this, stop press the timothies are coming to the brox dressed as taxmen. Lol. Omfg.lmao

Can you imagine hundreds of dejected taxmen walking through Glasgow on Sunday afternoon.

Do you cork lovers own a suit?

Do you benefit frauds pay tax yourselves ?

Go away and leave the champions alone or I'll turn round and not look at you in defiance, not cos I'd copied other teams.

12 Sep 2011 21:45:46
Thought I would give all you bears a smile. Bhoy on our pages just posted the following
I love my job with the Samaritans,just received a call from "Billy" he is so fed up with all the tax issues he is phoning from the railway track. I said "caller please STAY ON THE LINE" CFC 1888

I thought this was quite funny to be honest

It was funnier when I heard the guy's name was Paddy too. lol

daviet

12 Sep 2011 21:08:40
let them know the facts
we care not about the tax
im a proud and literate bear
you wont see me writing to fare
the paranoia you see will not stop
while the mighty rangers are TOP

12 Sep 2011 20:30:45
It's a sad state of affairs what is going on within Scottish Football. I am a proud Rangers man through and through and there is no doubt worrying times lie ahead, for us, even if we are cleared of the Tax situation I still see troubled waters ahead for the club. I know through mis-management by the previous regime we cannot lay the blame on anyone for this but ffs, the media are jumping on every little story and painting as bad a picture as they can, and the Manky Mob ( I wouldn't be surprised if they were behind the leaked Bain papers btw - it stinks of something parkheadish) think that everything in the their little world would be great if Rangers went out of Business - Can you imagine such a scenario for Scottish football, who would put money into the game, the little we get from Sky-ESPN is only down to 4x old firm matches a season - there would be no attraction and yes the dirt would win the SPL every season but what would it really mean, 8 out of the 12 clubs are already struggling financially and would probably go to the wall without the revenue generated by the old firm, it really is pretty grim.

Look on the bright side, If you's do go to the wall you won't have to worry about the rest of us and how we'd adapt.HH

Mark

Mark mark mark, lame lame lame, jokes jokes jokes sorry I've a habit of saying things three in a row.

Let's get back to football, we are on our knees but are still champions- how does that make you feel? I'd imagine living through 9 in a row you'd know how to
Cope.

Maybe so but you will have to move to the old country because Scottish football will be in a worse state than the Irish league.

I ain't trying to stir anything here but I think in terms of the leaked papers you need to look at your own house. How could Celtic possibly get hold of Bain's court papers?

It must be someone within the Rangers hierarchy that's leaking papers in the first place, probably for small backhanders. I'm not even (necessarily) talking major figures at the club here - it could be anyone with access to them including cleaning staff etc. that are offered a grand to scan them and pass them on (and it is a scan - it's not word processed straight to pdf as the clarity of the file is more typical of a scanned document).

A number of people in the courts obviously also have access. Paul McBride is probably the first name that'll spring to mind but bear in mind he represents players from all over Scotland - including Rangers. His career wouldn't be worth it and chances are he's too busy to bother.

If you want my view on it though I think Bain himself or someone acting for his cause leaked the papers. Think about it - he has motive to do so in that it's an opportunity to get one up on Craig Whyte who apparently wants to keep financial situation quiet and at the end of the day Whyte sacked him - revenge; and most definitely will have opportunity, given that the papers concern him and he probably has a copy. It also brings the situation at Rangers more into the public eye which can only benefit him as there'll undoubtedly be people reading it that feel he was treated unfairly and either way it puts pressure on Rangers to sort the situation out. {Ed014's Note - Celtic never got hold of any court papers.}

Listen mark! if rangers do fold which they wont, but just say they do how many season tickets do u think use would sell not a lot, who would sponser u no one so get real and go back to ure runners up page and buy a box of hankachefs for sunday, i bet ure one of the last ones to leave parkhead at the end of every season crying ure eyes out and then run home to see if u were on the tv. in white and ally we trust.watp ramie gf

Is it within the bounds of possibility that a celtic supporter works at the law firm, were the papers where - eh photocopied or scanned, because lets face it, they are quick off the mark to do the utmost damage to RFC the first chance they get, From the very top REEK sorry reid and Liewell making derogatery remarks about the club to the reporting us in europe, petty sh*t (davie wiers top, etc) complaing that we sing offensive songs, ( we don't care what the Animals say .. ???)
Then there is the Celtic Manager, ( people hate me because I am a NI Catholic, eh sorry so was Martin O'Neil your hated because your a coni )trying every trick in the book to gain advantage with the REFS , accusing teams of not trying against Rangers, (yet we say nothing when they take 22 goals off Aberdeen in one season) can you see where I am going with this .... they will stop at nothing, absolutely nothing, don't kid yourselfs, you only need to look at the past record to know that it is indeed more probable than possible ...

12 Sep 2011 20:14:00
Lets think about some of the issues with a bit of logic and some calm, now im not saying that I have all the answers but lets just consider that we are not days from administration.

Now the term administration has been banded about too freely in my opinion firstly to enter administration Rangers have to be insolvent which is a number of steps away, no Timothy it didnt happen today.

Ok worst case £35m +14m in fines turns into reality, realistically the tax man will not force a club the size of rangers into administration immediately as we have assets worth £49m or close to and a high level of income in which HMRC can receive a reasonable repayment. Now would HMRC force Rangers into administration and risk receiving a fraction of the money they are chasing......No I didnt think so either


Now I'm not naive, but has anyone considered Craig Whyte is not a monster. Who knows what kind of provision he has set aside for the taxman? Now he could be Dr Evil and watch the club take the £49m hit and transfer the £18m back to the club and get out scot free but come on, really?


Other point is that Whyte spent a year doing due diligence on the club. Don't tell me that was spent hatching a plan in how to ruin the club, he will have received the best advice on this case and I'd take a punt he is fairly certain on the answer.

All said, who really knows the answers- is Whyte the boogeyman?, is he a smart businessman?, does he have money to burn and all this is chicken feed to him?

Please don't come on here and profess to know the answers because you don't realistically we are miles away from the correct answer. No one's taking our beloved Rangers away just yet, time will tell.

Ps do you think we can sue Chelsea and get the £12m back for Flo?

Gers one nil on sunday, Goian header.

DR D

Do you not think that it is really worrying when you are admitting you don't know what Whyte's plans are. Think about it.

..no more than the Glazer's plans for Man Utd. Or any of the other owners of any other club.

What about Lawless? What EXACTLY are his plans for Celtic? Who knows?

I do recall a number of Celtic fans up in arms at Fergus McCanns plans though... do you recall?

daviet

12 Sep 2011 19:50:07
To all u tims that say ur going win on sunday remind me what was ur score against st johnstone couple of weeks ago?

It was 1-0 to St Johnstone.

Drew

And what was Rangers record last season in the league against Celtic?

Who won the league no matter how many times we beat use lol

And who won the league?

12 Sep 2011 19:17:08
I reckon it's going to be a tense battle on Sunday with not a lot of football on show. 2-1 Gers for me. Hopefully the game goes by without incident and everyone (players, coaches & fans) behaves themselves. We don't need to carry on where we left off last season it's getting boring and tedious.

I take it that you don't want the likes of Broadfoot, Naismith and Lafferty diving then

Stokes is the biggest cheat in Scottish football at the moment so it should be quite a good game if he stays off the pitch! Lemon should stick with Big Samantha, ha ha ha! 2-1 to the Gers on Sunday WATP!

I don't like seeing anyone diving rubber nut! But lets face it, you lot see what you want to see!

Glasgow Celtic: Always cheated. Never defeated!

Fail Fail

OMFG!

Do you see the stupidity in your post Fail Fail?!

Please tell me you meant that as a joke- it STINKS of irony.

And by "irony" I don't mean the big pile of creased washing...

Off you pop now...

daviet

12 Sep 2011 19:12:34
athletico madrid are 80/1 to beat celtic 5 nil surely thats worth a gamble??

I'm a Celtic fan and that's Defo worth a tenner!

Whydo so many celtic supporters come on here,if its to gloat at rangers expence dont forget if anything happened to the bears you lot are fu..ked too.

12 Sep 2011 18:12:02
I think it is fairly clear what Whyte has done (with a few unknowns), and also pretty clever, although part of his strategy has backfired.

He has bough 85% of RFC for £1. One of his companies takes on the circa £18m debt from Lloyds Bank.

His whole strategy hinges around the outcome of the HMRC case and he takes a gamble on Rangers winning the case.

However, the risk in the gamble is fairly minimal. If Rangers lose, the £18m debt to Lloyds transfers back to Rangers. Rangers have a bill to HMRC of circa £49m (making total debt circa £67m). The club goes into administration and Whyte walks away.

In these circumstances Whyte's company does not have any debt to Lloyds as it's transferred back to Rangers, he has bought the club for only £1 and he's probably engineered a way of getting his due diligence costs and legals fees (estimated at £550k - £750k) back already.

So limited risk to Whyte and all pretty clever stuff.

If Rangers win the HMRC case, then Whyte has an asset worth millions with little or no debt, for a purchase price if £1. He then works to increase the value of the club over the next few years, like Fergus McCann done at Celtic, and sells it of at a handsome profit.

Whyte is a clever businessman so if RFC win the HMRC case, he has most likely worked a way of offsetting the circa £18m debt he has taken on from Lloyds.

The only part of his strategy that has backfired so far is RFC not qualifying for the Champions League and securing circa £15m, although this may come back to bite him.

I say this as a constructive Celtic supporter.

Good post.

Valid arguments too.

I'm not so sure that he will walk away if HMRC are given judgement though- he will be one of the main creditors.

I think there will be a deal done if judgement goes against us, which seems unlikely

daviet

Whyte would have to walk away if Rangers go into administration if he is a Director of Rangers (I take it he is?). He cannot be a creditor in his role as a Director of Rangers. He can only be a creditor if Rangers owe one of his other companies money.

I was under the impression that the debt previously held at LBG was transferred to one of his own companies...

daviet

12 Sep 2011 17:00:55
I have read all the 'stuff' about Rangers problems and this is what I have concluded:

A deal was done between MIH and Lloyds
for a third party (Whyte) to buy the club for
a nominal fee (£1) and for the liabilities which were cross gauranteed by MIH to be transferred in their entirety to RFC.

In the event of the Tax case being lost the
Lloyds debt would be written back into RFC and the club placed into administration.

I believe that this has been done to protect both
Lloyds and MIH. If Rangers had not been sold
any action by HMRC to recover the debt
would have fallen on MIH probably leading to
their insolvency and hug losses running to hundreds
of millions of pounds for Lloyds.

If Rangers win their case with HMRC everybody breaths a huge sigh of relief, if Rangers lose the case all concerned MIH, Lloyds and Whyte
will all walk away unscathed, with Whyte probably picking up a consultancy fee for his trouble.

Meantime RFC will be left for the fans to breath life into.

There is no logic in what is currently takingplacece
why with the full knowledge of the potential
HMRC liability did Whyte buy the club, the either
know for definate that HMRC cannot win the case or there is a scam, there is no middle ground.

Whyte is probably only in it for a quick buck while the man responsible for this is David Murray, I suspect somewhere along the road there may well be a court case.

I am a 30 year Rangers Season Ticket holder.

Good post - spot on. Whyte needs to let the fans know the plans for losing the taxcase and winning the taxcase. This would put a lot of minds at rest. The guy must have a plan ffs! Jas

Your right one day murray might sue you lot for all the money he wasted buying trophy's for you ungrateful neds during the 90s,fab1

12 Sep 2011 16:53:54
Rapid receive 'late' payment from Rangers for Nikica Jelavic

The Austrian club say there are no outstanding issues with the SPL side over a delayed instalment for the striker.


What a great guy this man Whyte is turning out to be, keep the money to make money and pay right at the end, clever.
Timmy and Hooppy will be ever so anoyedthat they wont have any thing to gossip about WIZARD

12 Sep 2011 16:15:49
My team for Sunday (not that it matters a f*** lol)

McGregor

Whittaker Goian Bocanegra Wallace

Naismith McCulloch Davis McKay Wylde

Jelavic

I know Edu will no doubt start though like he usually does. I'd also be tempted to play Papac at CB next to goian but i don't know how fit he'll be. I don't give a s**t who plays tbh as long as everyone is focused and have got their head screwed on. We need to stop needlessly giving the ball away (Whittaker). Mon the Bears!

Your team is ok apart from the fact you have mcculloch in your team he is almost as bad as edu. I would drop mcculloch and play 2 up front with lafferty and jelavic. we should all know by now big jela hates playing up front himself and he is not the best at doing it .

Between McCulloch and Edu i think Lee is the lesser of two evils. I'd have had Ness in there if he were fit. I think Jelavic will start upfront on his own but with Naismith, Wylde either side and Davis possibly McKay in the middle he should get plenty service. Hopefully the big yins got his shooting boots on.

ps. Your probably right about the two upfront but i reckon we'll start cautious. That mobs defence is hummin! Big Mistakeovic won't be looking forward to going up against Jelavic!

Dan the man thats runs like he's towing a caravan won't get anywhere near the side on sunday so nay luck there( 3-1 Celtic)

12 Sep 2011 15:29:30
Rangers Team for game against Celtic on Sunday.

McGreggor


Whittaker, Goian, Bocanegra, Papac


Naismith, Edu, Davis, Wylde


Lafferty


Jelavic


I would love to see McKay get a chance against Celtic but can see McCoist take such a big risk in an Old Firm Game.
Also if worse comes to worse and we don't have a good half, I would like to see Bedoya come on if fit, because what is the point in signing these players unless they are ready to play in the big games and is the only big team we will be playing this season since we are no longer in Europe. Put Naismith behind Jelavic and Lafferty, and bring Bedoya on for Edu.

Realistic score against Celtic on Sunday 3 - 1, to the Gers. 4IAR. Lets concentrate on the football for the rest of the week instead of all this doom and gloom about "money issues".

Wallace should and will get picked ahead of Papac...

Wallace is much better than papac and papac has hardly played

We have a great tradition of signing players and not playing them... Long may this rubbish rule continue that we need to protect players...

12 Sep 2011 14:58:23
My team for thrashing the Runners up on Sunday
McGregor
Whittaker Goian Bocenegra Wallace
McCulloch
Naismith Davis Edu / Mackay Lafferty
Jelavic
4-1-4-1 which can easily become a 4-3-3 when in attack. I hope we come out like a train and set the tone for a right royal humping we will inflict on our less fortunate rivals, 4 in a row

You really want edu and McCullough in the same team, were humped with that mate

12 Sep 2011 14:03:04
had a wee look at the darksides page n apparently there gonna pump us on sun where have they been past three years and dressin up as the tax man PLEASE TO ALL GOIN TO THE GAME BRING AN INFLATEABLE SPL TROPHY W.A.T.P

Who gives a flying F**k what they are saying ? Let's just get behind the RANGERS and if Ally picks the right team, we willall be smiling as we take another step closer to 4 in a row............ 3v1 is my prediction, Lafferty to terrorise them, OOPS ! thats not allowed, big man to bag a brace 4 in a row

12 Sep 2011 10:29:25
Due to cash flow problems the old firm game at Ibrox there will be no toss of the coin, instead stone, paper scissors will be employed. enjoy bears

Aye, Hopefully after we beat you lot on Sunday you can come back on and make another attempt at being smart.
BR

Ha ha what a comeback, why dont you employ a scriptwriter, ooops forget money is tight down your way lol CFC 1888

You've a very short memory CFC 1888

I seem to remember you were within a few hours of going out of business before Fergus came in.

Tell me something, does it sicken you to think that we may be skint and STILL whipping your ass every year?

You shouldn't forget, that without us you're NOTHING

Go back to your own page.

daviet

If we go down, Celtic will follow eventually. We both need each other, like it or not. No one will be interested in the SPL without BOTH parts of the Old Firm.

12 Sep 2011 10:06:15
If Whyte bought the club for £1 from Sir David Murray, Was aware that a tax bill in excess of 30 million was pending and of course the outstanding debt to lloyds, then maybe murray agreed for whyte to pay both the tax bill and debt to lloyds and that would equate to the valuation of the club??

Any thoughts on this bears? I'm sure a self made millionaire like mr whyte would not take charge of us if there was any doubt that we'd be in such bother as being reported.

Result on sunday
Champions 3 Runners up 1
Whiitaker 1st goal, Penalty.

J1985

12 Sep 2011 08:40:44
After reading all the information presented on www.rangerstaxcase.com and other associated info in the media I genuinely fear we are in bad shape.
Especially now with no European football.

Craig Whyte has not paid off our debt, merely transferred it to one of his holding companies. Also the figure for the 2 tax cases combined comes to approx £51M. I think we are genuinely facing administration.

I am not writing this as a doom and gloom post but to see what positives we can derive from such a situation. If we go into administration we would receive a 10 point redcution which would (probably) cost us the league. However we would not be liable to pay all of the debt we owe, which including the previous debt to Lloyds (now owed to Whyte) and the tax case which we look certain to lose amounts to a horrific £70m. If we entered administration we would most likely have to pay about 10% of this...£7m.

Obv this is a far from ideal situation but my point is we could clear the clubs huge debt and start afresh. We would have to sell some of our star players and we would have to rely on our Murray Park products. If you look long term, maybe say 5 years this would give us a club that is debt free with an experienced spine of young scottish players desperate and hungry to play for the badge. Understandably we don't want to go all this time without winning the SPL but even with our youth guys and the players we have on lower wages we'd be looking at 2nd and possibly first once they gained experience.

As a final point if we did enter administration the club would obv be available for a lower price to any prospective buyers and we would be a much more attractive proposition with no debt and a good core of young players with no transfer fees paid but with sell on value. I believe the best buyer would be......us, the fans!

I know it's a long shot but if half of Ibrox (25000) saved up and bought £1000 worth of shares each that would amount to £25M of shares. At least then the club would be run by people with it's best interests at heart. This would allow us to buy back the club, it's assets and have it run properly!

I know this isn't what people want to hear but we have to be realistic and as a fan maybe it's the best option for the long term future of our club.

Any thoughts would be appreciated ed? {Ed001's Note - I think along similar lines, if admin did happen, it would surely be possible to rebuild without the weight of debt.}

In regards to a fan buyout or any buy out for that matter. Whyte owns the club, it is a limited company not a plc. This means that Whyte has the power of accepting or rejecting any bid for the club. Whyte wants administration, look at it from his point of view, he buys the club for a pound, lets the taxcase play out and comes away with a debt free club with tangible assets for a quid. Good business eh? So, why would he possibly want to sell the club for a pittance? This is what he's wanted from day 1 and he will aim to prove to the administrator that he has the financial capability to run the club. He has not bought this club to have it taken from him for nothing, he will wait until it is worthless..... which it practically is at the moment, then when the debt has been shifted it because extremely valuable again.

That doesn't really make sense mate. If we went into administration the clubs assets would be sold off to pay off the debt. Plus personally i dont think it makes good business sense for anyone to buy a business then have it in administration. A fans buyout is what we need. We just need someone to lead it and get people behind it!

Why would the club's assets need to be sold off to pay off the debt?

Exactly what IS our debt? NO-ONE outside the club really knows. We may have future liabilities but we don't know! I've posted elsewhere regarding the HMRC case. Go read it.

I also want to point out that there are many many clubs around the world who have much MUCh more debt than our club (the Man Utds, the Real Madrids, the Barcelonas, etc). As long as the debt is manageable then none of the creditors has a problem.

That's why I have cars on HP and a mortgage, as do many of you. Can I service my debts? Yes I can! Just like my club can.

We must ask ourselves exactly WHO we own money to today... there's the £2.8mil tax bill which came up during Whyte's due diligence and the resultant £1.8mill fine (which RFC are appealing). And.... well....ummmm...

Can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Anyone?

daviet

I think a fan buy out is the way forward

Other clubs do also have massive debts,
but none of the clubs you mention have a tax default hanging over them ,
thats the problem we have.
lets be honest guys we are in bother and we need to face up to it no one ever beats the taxman

Because mate if we had to repay £50m and £20m debt unless we have 70m cash lying about they'd come after our assets. Just like if you can't pay your bills, eventually they reclaim their money anyway they can. Also clubs like man u etc have massive incomes and profits so can service debt. We don't and can't.

What £50mill?

And why would we pay an additional £19mill? The debt is now RFCs through its owner.

There is NO "tax bill". HMRC, in trying to close a perfectly legal loophole, state that we MAY owe them something. No-on, I repeat, NO-ONE at this stage knows what that figure may or not be.

As I've already posted, HMRC have lost cases of this nature before regarding EBTs

clients.squareeye.net/uploads/pump/documents/070798_sempra-080708.pdf

There is NO legal precedent in favour of HMRCs arguments. Ther is also NO suggestion of illegal activity, despite what some blogs will tell you. It should also be noted that many other clubs and businesses use EBTs for various reasons.

We have agreed to pay £2.8mill as part of a tax bill but dispute the additional £1.4mill fine. RFC will NOT pay the £2.8mill as by doing so they will accept the fine. RFC and HMRC are attempting to come to an agreement first.

daviet

I'll be more then happy if you're correct mate!

12 Sep 2011 08:53:46
Sorry to be depressing but if it all goes tits up and go into administration here's what i think we could raise from player sales and the starting 11 we could be left with.
Shagger - £10m, Jela - £8m, Davis - £5m, Edu - £1.5m, Whittaker - £2.0m, Naismith - £3m, Broadfoot - 500K This would give us £30m towards paying the debt/tax bill and would leave is with

Alexander
Macmillan Goian Bocanegra Wallace
Ortiz Ness Mackay Wylde
Lafferty Fleck

Subs: Little, Hutton, Bartley, Weir, Kerkar, Perry, Bedoya, Healy, Papac,

Not the best and we wouldn't win the league but it'd be a team for the future with depth from the young guys which given time could still be strong.

Just trying to be a realist guys

You will not get top whack for your players. The administrator will try to sell for the highest price but every club in the land will know that you are on your knees and will not offer anything like £10m for a player. Even prem teams that get relegated have to sell their best assets for next to nothing, look at Scott Parker? It will be a fire sale and the buying clubs will have ALL the power.

You're probably right but i think if it looks close to happening then we might have to do this in the january transfer window

12 Sep 2011 01:23:33
jelavic has won his battle to be fit for the old firm match